Q
quads
Rock Star
Silver Level
Their are no rules carved in stone how to play any hand at any given time, considering every situation is unique in its self. As far as this hand with QQ, early in a tournament, against aggressive player and only caller/raiser pre-flop, you just call his minimal raise and decide where you stand after flop. After the rag flop and aggressor pushes, the right play was to call. Of course after knowing the facts, QQ pushing all-in preflop had the chance of taking the pot right their, but he still may have gotten called. In my view he played the hand exactly right and lost anyhow.
As far as any pro not sitting back and just calling this hand pre-flop, read what Doyle has to say about QQ in Super Systems II.
And to everyone posting about pushing all-in preflop; under these same conditions, ask yourself honestly, what you would do if their was a million dollars sitting on that table for the winner?? Instead of playing tournaments with a tournament strategy, you'll find especially online many opponents playing with a cash game strategy. Their usually early departures. Many weak tournament players take unnecessary risks and decide to gamble based on the cost of their buy-in. Especially in re-buys.
Rounder_D
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Thank you quads!
Unnecessary risk!
you have position no need to re-raise. my question to you is if you raise can you fold if an A or K hits the flop?
let me ask you a question from a simular situation of risk. I was in the $150 nightly on full tilt last june about 30 form the money third in chips with about 48,000 I get KK and raise 3x and got called by chip leader (who just happened to be at my table) flop came Kh, Th, 6h and he instantly pushed you have about 42,000 in chips do you call with top set or fold?
I folded because that was unnecessary risk that I didn't need to take, that is the same with QQ to a raise in position no need to take that risk by re-raising you can call then see flop and then make a better move based on more facts, the same outcome would have hapened if it would have been the same flop, but full tilt and their continuous shuffle it would have been a diffrent flop.
Unnecessary risk!
you have position no need to re-raise. my question to you is if you raise can you fold if an A or K hits the flop?
let me ask you a question from a simular situation of risk. I was in the $150 nightly on full tilt last june about 30 form the money third in chips with about 48,000 I get KK and raise 3x and got called by chip leader (who just happened to be at my table) flop came Kh, Th, 6h and he instantly pushed you have about 42,000 in chips do you call with top set or fold?
I folded because that was unnecessary risk that I didn't need to take, that is the same with QQ to a raise in position no need to take that risk by re-raising you can call then see flop and then make a better move based on more facts, the same outcome would have hapened if it would have been the same flop, but full tilt and their continuous shuffle it would have been a diffrent flop.
widowmaker89
Visionary
Silver Level
I am sorry but direct me where in SS2 it says to flat call against a aggressive SB trying to steal your BB with QQ?
We arent talking about unnecessary risk here, we are talking about getting money in the pot when you crush the range. If you are going to wait for the nuts everytime you will not fare well in these tournys, you have to put pressure on people when you crush their range.
True early in the tourny its not as important and you can play more cautiously, that said this isnt a time, he is raising with almost any two cards here, make him pay if he wants to see the flop.
Is this a $150 freeroll? I think you gotta call this, getting into the money shouldnt be your goal, FT or winning should be. Does he really push here with a made flush? I doubt it.
As for your million dollar question, of course I play the same way(or would really try and hope I do). If you are not playing optimally then dont play you are wasting your money. I also dont understand your cash game comparison? Going all in early in these tournys is from idiots who either want to double up or go home with any two decent cards, cash games are quite the opposite.
Knowing there are a bunch of idiots who are hoping for a coin flip to double up early in a tourny is even more reason to raise with QQ and hope to get all in.
We arent talking about unnecessary risk here, we are talking about getting money in the pot when you crush the range. If you are going to wait for the nuts everytime you will not fare well in these tournys, you have to put pressure on people when you crush their range.
True early in the tourny its not as important and you can play more cautiously, that said this isnt a time, he is raising with almost any two cards here, make him pay if he wants to see the flop.
Is this a $150 freeroll? I think you gotta call this, getting into the money shouldnt be your goal, FT or winning should be. Does he really push here with a made flush? I doubt it.
As for your million dollar question, of course I play the same way(or would really try and hope I do). If you are not playing optimally then dont play you are wasting your money. I also dont understand your cash game comparison? Going all in early in these tournys is from idiots who either want to double up or go home with any two decent cards, cash games are quite the opposite.
Knowing there are a bunch of idiots who are hoping for a coin flip to double up early in a tourny is even more reason to raise with QQ and hope to get all in.
Rounder_D
Enthusiast
Silver Level
no it was the $150 buy in and I finished in 6th for $2,300. you say you have to call and no you dont you can find better situations to get your money in with. The whole point I am trying to make is dont be so quick to put your money in when you still have 5 cards to come unless you have AA their are more profitable ways to play QQ in position then just commiting yourself pre-flop
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widowmaker89
Visionary
Silver Level
I see, the only difference should still be the quality of the player are better, I still say a call is in order unless he has been playing low suited cards to a raise, possible being chip leader. If he has a low made flush he might come out swinging but if he has a higher flush I cant see an all in here. I think you are ahead of his range and do have some outs if you arent.
Rounder_D
Enthusiast
Silver Level
yes, and he has been quite agressive with just about any two cards so to even try to play for my tounament life against him I see no need I only lost like 6,000 on the hand and I feel their are far more profitable spots to get my money in with. Their is always another hand as long as you got chips!
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Dorkus Malorkus
HELLO INTERNET
Silver Level
I dunno, I think if I took the times I committed myself with QQ against a range of 22+/A2+/K8+/Q9+/JT (and this is an incredibly conservative estimate of villain's SB openraising range) I think I'd probably wind up ahead, heh.
'Calling so we can get away if an A or K flops' is a fundamentally flawed mentality to have. Are we calling with KK here in case an A flops? Are we calling with AA here in case 2 Ks flop and villain has Kx? Heck why don't we fold AA here in case villain has 68o and flops quads? Where do you draw the line? How many times would we be incorrectly folding to turn shoves if an A or K flops and the flop goes check-check?
widowmaker89
Visionary
Silver Level
Im not open shoving here, but raising and would shove if he reraised. His range is very large(maybe ATC?) and I want to get money in when I have the best hand.
Lets say a K comes and he check raises you, then what. How about 456 with 2 clubs and he check raises you? You folding because he might have you beat and its too risky?
Lets say a K comes and he check raises you, then what. How about 456 with 2 clubs and he check raises you? You folding because he might have you beat and its too risky?
Rounder_D
Enthusiast
Silver Level
by not re-raising I am controling the flop bet making it no more then 480 but by re-raising the flop bet can now become 1440 which is just about all-in.
If I dont reraise and their is only 480 in their and a K comes and he checks I would bet 300 and if he re-raised then yes I would let it go. But by raising pre flop their is no way to get away from the hand now because a minimum flop bet is going to be half your stack.
No complaints with how the hand played out, it would have been the same for everyone but I wouldn't have re-raised in position
If I dont reraise and their is only 480 in their and a K comes and he checks I would bet 300 and if he re-raised then yes I would let it go. But by raising pre flop their is no way to get away from the hand now because a minimum flop bet is going to be half your stack.
No complaints with how the hand played out, it would have been the same for everyone but I wouldn't have re-raised in position
Monoxide
Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I could never, ever lay this down, so massively - EV. You have an oppertunity to be a massive chip leader...I could see if it was really early maybe but, this is like superb in every way.
Like what beats you? Nothing. A flush draw or possible straight draw like, maybe. Or you could just improve even further and WTFBBQ him.
Was anyone else shocked reading that? top set? a guy pushes all *his* chips into you? Id be fistpumping.... /snapcall
Rounder_D
Enthusiast
Silver Level
I cant see pushing the entire stack in when its not the nuts off the flop I have only risked 12% of my stack and still have 42,000 after laying it down, if I call and lose I am out, if I fold I still have a good chance of winning the tournament and I ended up sixth I will take the $2400 payday any time over busting out on a possible second best hand