PF shove AA late stages

S

Shandy

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Hi just wondering if people like the way i played the following hand, had just been moved to the table, was my first hand, although we were down to last 2 tables, so had been playing with a couple of them for a while, had been playing very tight, and always opening for the standard 3* raise when i did have a good hand. Felt that a standard raise would look stronger than the push, and anyone who hadn't been at my table may think i had just lost a big hand and was on tilt, so felt playing it this way would get the most value.
Is this a standard play for most, or do you think this loses some value played this way.
pokerstars Game #10157137688: Tournament #51170335, $2.50+$0.25 Hold'em No Limit
- Level XVII (4000/8000) - 2007/05/28 - 21:31:08 (ET)
Table '51170335 121' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: bergop (175920 in chips)
Seat 2: CK1234567890 (93586 in chips)
Seat 3: freddy1712 (416674 in chips)
Seat 4: Anksunamun (73407 in chips)
Seat 5: 222shay222 (117090 in chips)
Seat 6: Raiz7 (467970 in chips)
Seat 7: AiaG (97400 in chips)
Seat 8: brandisboys (92433 in chips)
Seat 9: Wolfy#3 (186537 in chips)
bergop: posts the ante 400
CK1234567890: posts the ante 400
freddy1712: posts the ante 400
Anksunamun: posts the ante 400
222shay222: posts the ante 400
Raiz7: posts the ante 400
AiaG: posts the ante 400
brandisboys: posts the ante 400
Wolfy#3: posts the ante 400
CK1234567890: posts small blind 4000
freddy1712: posts big blind 8000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 222shay222 [Ad As]
Anksunamun: folds
222shay222: raises 108690 to 116690 and is all-in
 
rob5775

rob5775

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Unless you expect someone to also have a big pocket pair or possibly AK, you just pushed out any possible callers. I like the thinking, but at this limit your probably putting too much thought into this. As dorkus would say, quite playing meta poker and just play it straight forward.

A standard 3x raise would be of more value at this point in the tourney, and might induce one of the smaller stacks to come over the top with a push.
 
pink_floyd67

pink_floyd67

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At this stage its your only move.
You don't want someone calling with semi garbage and hitting trips or 2 pair on the flop, most likely you would loss ur stack if that happens.
i rather win the blinds and antes then loss my stack.
Just because u r ahead now doesn't guarantee you win the hand
You get too cute with pocket AA you can get F-ed big.
 
rob5775

rob5775

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At this stage its your only move.
You don't want someone calling with semi garbage and hitting trips or 2 pair on the flop, most likely you would loss ur stack if that happens.
i rather win the blinds and antes then loss my stack.
Just because u r ahead now doesn't guarantee you win the hand
You get too cute with pocket AA you can get F-ed big.


Why wouldn't you want someone calling with semi garbage? Most of the time they will miss, or hit top pair and pay you off. With that logic, why push at all? KK or QQ might hit a set. For value, I believe you have to make a standard raise. Pushing all in almost guarantees no callers, because most players at this level are oblivious to what the OP wants them to think (that he's pushing with a weaker hand, therefore getting a call).
 
pink_floyd67

pink_floyd67

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For value, I believe you have to make a standard raise

I raised for value many times and i got lucky half the time which means i lost half the time too.
at that level he was playing a 3* raise woud be 24K which he would probably call and then if he gets nothing he folds to any of my bets, am i right in that thinking?
If i am it means i am taking a 20-25% risk of lossing 16K to win 40K.
I rather push allin and take my 80% chance to win all his chips then loss all my chips at 25%
 
dj11

dj11

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He says it is late, down to 2 tables. My experiences suggest anyone calling a 3x raise, will either be insane, or have big pp.

In these situations I have been very fortunate to raise the 3x, or pot bet, get a caller, and then pop almost regardless post flop. A flushed flop, or 9TJ 2 suited might give me pause.

Perhaps a slightly bigger raise upfront would be the solution. Maybe 5x. Only the truely serious would apply at this stage, and that would ususally mean big pp, qq, kk. If there is a LAG or maniac at the table he would be raising, then you do what you do in a HU with AA, shove it all!

There are no guarentees in poker, but there are many situations where increasing value can mean a whole lot. All in PF with AA here probably got folded away, and this great opportunity for value slipped away.

Early to mid stages of a tourney maybe slow playing AA , but not here, not now.
 
Stefanicov

Stefanicov

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thing is there are 2 ways of playing it u limp to induce all ins from hands stealing or u rse normal 3-4x bb to push loses u all value at 2 buck level why would u want to chase out tp omg i must be aheaders
 
rob5775

rob5775

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I raised for value many times and i got lucky half the time which means i lost half the time too.
at that level he was playing a 3* raise woud be 24K which he would probably call and then if he gets nothing he folds to any of my bets, am i right in that thinking?
If i am it means i am taking a 20-25% risk of lossing 16K to win 40K.
I rather push allin and take my 80% chance to win all his chips then loss all my chips at 25%

I think I know where your going with this, but I don't know where your getting the 25% at.

Whether you get a call at a 2x or 3x, or you push, with AA you have a 80% chance to win. You have the same risk of losing all your chips (20%) if you get a caller with a push or a standard raise. But by getting a caller for an allin, they have to see all five cards. Whereas if you get a call by some lower pair or unpaired high card with a standard raise, they are likely to fold the flop if they miss. And you get more than the blinds and antes without putting your entire stack at risk preflop.

The OP was taking about getting value with his AA. Pushing preflop at this point (granted, I'm looking at the stacks at his table... I don't know what the chip average is or what his chip position is) limits the value with this hand.
 
S

Shandy

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Hi thanks for your replys, in the particular hand i did get a call from
brandisboys holding AJo, now i don't know if he is just a gambler who would have pushed all in to a standard raise anyway, or if my tactic did actually work, and he read me for a much weaker hand, although i think with AJo he was probably just a nutter who would have got all his chips in anyway. Results arn't important but have posted them just for your amusement. Still feel that i played it pretty well, and got all my chips in while way ahead.
222shay222: raises 108690 to 116690 and is all-in
Raiz7: folds
AiaG: folds
brandisboys: calls 92033 and is all-in
Wolfy#3: folds
bergop: folds
CK1234567890: folds
freddy1712: folds
*** FLOP *** [Kh Jh Qs]
*** TURN *** [Kh Jh Qs] J♣
*** RIVER *** [Kh Jh Qs Jc] 6♦
*** SHOW DOWN ***
222shay222: shows [Ad As] (two pair, Aces and Jacks)
brandisboys: shows [Js Ah] (three of a kind, Jacks)
brandisboys collected 199666 from pot
Anksunamun said, "lol"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 199666 | Rake 0
Board [Kh Jh Qs Jc 6d]
Seat 1: bergop (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: CK1234567890 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: freddy1712 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: Anksunamun folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: 222shay222 showed [Ad As] and lost with two pair, Aces and Jacks
Seat 6: Raiz7 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: AiaG folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: brandisboys showed [Js Ah] and won (199666) with three of a kind, Jacks
Seat 9: Wolfy#3 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
 
Vintage82

Vintage82

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I dont personally mind the push. Your M is just under 10 making it a decent move anyway.

Also, if you come out clean on the otherside (which you didnt, obviously!), the other players would probably think of you as loose-aggressive, setting the table up for later moves.
 
J

joeeagles

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I think this mostly depends on how active you have been the last 1-2 orbits, Shandy. If you've been active shoving PF and stealing blinds, then the shove is the better move, because players will you put on a steal with a very wide range and you'll get a call, even if you're UTG+1. There are some big stacks (the BB is 1 of them) and a few desperate ones, so if you have a LAG image the shove is better than the standard raise.

If your image is tight, you'll have trouble getting action whatever you do, but in that case I think the standard raise is better, particularly if the big stack in the BB is aggressive in defending his blinds. The standard raise will leave the window open for any aggressive villains to attempt a resteal, mostly by those who have a bigger stack than yours.

Like many hands in NLHE, I doubt there is a clear cut way to play this. Your image +recent activity + read on table should suggest which is the better way. You got a weak A to call you here so it seems that you made the right decision. Good job.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

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Unless you expect someone to also have a big pocket pair or possibly AK, you just pushed out any possible callers. I like the thinking, but at this limit your probably putting too much thought into this. As dorkus would say, quite playing meta poker and just play it straight forward.

A standard 3x raise would be of more value at this point in the tourney, and might induce one of the smaller stacks to come over the top with a push.
^^^^^^^ this (i hate doing that!). AA at level 17 is an absolute godsend - you want to set the bet so that you get a caller - 3xBB is 24,000, that's perfect.
 
pink_floyd67

pink_floyd67

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right now that we see the flop we can be sure that even if you raise 3* PF you are getting called any bet you are making post flop.
if he is holding AJ he is calling you even if u go allin post flop.
I think that 99% of the times when you are holding AA and u make a value bet you almost always go allin post flop.
 
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