limping KK on the button

[Shandy]

Was watching my brother play a $10 mtt on pokerstars yesterday 10minute levels, he was running pretty hot early on and was basically a card rack, he had a 10k stack with the 2nd highest on the table being <6k.
One hand which i thought would be interesting for discussion is outlined below:
BB100
Hero KK on the button.
folded to him.
he limps
sb completes
bb checks
flop A55r
2 checks
he bets 300
2 folds.

Please try to list everything wrong with the hand

 

[Emperor IX]

1. He didn't raise for info, though that's ok, because SB and BB are unlikely to have an ace, and if they do, they'll probably announce it.

2. He bet too much on the flop, that flop has certainly not hit the sb and most likely not the bb

 

[joeeagles]

Please try to list everything wrong with the hand

Lol, everything and nothing. Being on the button I might try this in an unraised pot every now and then when the blinds are that small and antes are yet to kick in. Also, it depends on reads you have on the SB and BB (if they overbet flops, if they're aggressive, if they go too far defending their blinds with marginal hands etc).

For sure, the flop was as bad as it can get, not only because of the A but the two 5's also. His bet though (300) is hardly one that can get him in any trouble, as long as he slows down if he gets called and folds if he gets raised. That last part (fold if raised) doesn't sound good because it makes you vulnerable to bluffs, which are common on paired boards, but you really have almost no choice, since there are 2 ways to lose now. It's stuff that can happen when you make this kind of play.

Even so, I don't dislike it. As I said every now and then I'll do that too, when the conditions are right for it. His play on the flop was necessary IMO, he was unlucky to get a flop that was too risky and could no longer be slowplayed. Betting right there and then could potentially still get a very weak A to fold.

 

[vanquish]

Limp OTB with folds all around is the wrong play always in my mind.

 

[Shandy]

My thoughts on the hand were as follows:
Preflop- really don't mind this at all, i think with KK and AA limping is really not that bad- as there are few flops which you really hate- QQ and below i think are probably raises. The only small problem i have with it is, he had been fairly active (he had had good cards- but not all were shown down)- and he is on the button so a raise is going to look more like a steal- so he could easily get called or raised by worse hands. But limping is fine too.
Flop- basically everycard (apart from two of a suit)- which he didnt want to see has hit the board- the only over, and a paired board. Its checked to him- so is looking like no-one is really that interested- although i check a 5 here if i am in either of the blinds.
So now the choice of betting or checking.
If we see what happens when we bet first- situation 1- neither blind has hit the flop and neither is holding a PP- both fold- we collect the 300 pot.
situation 2- One or both have either a 5 or an A- we get called or raised- and have to give up on the hand.
situation3- neither have anything, but the sb folds- and the big blind- thinks how has the button got to this point with a '5' and bluff raises- outcome- we have to fold.
situation 4- one of the blinds has a PP between and is willing to call- we then check down the next 2 streets and hopefully he doesnt hit his 2 outer- or try bluffing us and we win.
there are a few other situations- but most either involve us winning a small amount more- or getting bluffed off the best hand.
Now if we check- we really are not worried about giving a free card- the most outs someone has is 4- (the 23,34,42) hands. Checking may also make one of the blinds take a stab at the pot with something that we are beating- and depending on bet sizes we can call and reevaluate on the river.
Also i really don't think that the worst outcome would be checking this right down to showdown if it comes to that- just to show that you are capable of limping KK, which will hopefully make the table more wary of you next time you limp.
shandy

 

[jaymfc]

I don't like it , letting the sb and bb play any hand they get can hurt you. even a small raise might get that 5,9 or a,2 out, I hate getting a walk too but beter than getting it crammed by rags. I may limp in ep hoping someone esle will raise but on the button a raise is expected. I would be very happy to get no callers with that flop and end it with only winning the blinds.

 

[vanquish]

Also, open button limp looks so suspicious that the blinds might be inclined to check/call a hand they would normally call a raise with (then you don't know where you stand, blah blah).

 

[joeeagles]

Also, open button limp looks so suspicious that the blinds might be inclined to check/call a hand they would normally call a raise with (then you don't know where you stand, blah blah).

That's true for sure. It's also the reason why I said I wouldn't do it every time. If one of the them as been defending their blinds with marginal hands (and I want to add that I see a lot of this), which is something you should know since they're the first 2 players to your left, then by all means raise their asses.

The OP isn't giving any info as to the why hero decided to limp. But if he's an average/good player then I have to assume that the conditions were more ideal to get value by limping rather than raising (they were both tight, they overbet flops etc, for whatever reason). Given those conditions, occasionally I'll make this play too, until the blinds are small and there are no antes.

@Shandy: I read your comments and I have to agree with them. If we're going to risk 300 you should just check and maybe induce a bet from one of them, because you'll lose anyway if they have the A or a 5 and the more I think about it, the more I'm coming to a conclusion that a weak A will probably not fold. So what you say makes a whole lot of sense.