JTo, on the button, against limpers

OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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Interested what other people would have done here:

Background: for a freeroll, this has been a fairly well behaved / sane table. The number of pre-flop limpers in this hand wasn't the norm (normally there'd be at least one raise by the time action reached the button), so I figured it for a fairly reliable sign of weakness on everybody's part. Seats 5 and 9 have been the table bullies, I've taken a pot off each of them without showdown previously.

I haven't played many hands at this point (less than 25%), but I haven't shown down many that I have played either, so I doubt the rest of the table has me pegged as a bona fide rock or anything.

full tilt poker Game #3288945915: $100 Freeroll (25073969), Table 109 - 40/80 - No Limit Hold'em - 10:24:36 ET - 2007/08/18
Seat 1: ChipJeff (2,240)
Seat 2: w6o9p (3,388)
Seat 3: BiggiePG1 (1,520)
Seat 4: OzExorcist (2,120)
Seat 5: SUGARWILLED (3,185)
Seat 6: Piero49 (165), is sitting out
Seat 7: chinahowie (1,250)
Seat 8: babybeccaprc (1,080), is sitting out
Seat 9: Jiji82 (5,275)
SUGARWILLED posts the small blind of 40
Piero49 posts the big blind of 80
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to OzExorcist [Jd Tc]
chinahowie folds
babybeccaprc folds
Jiji82 calls 80
ChipJeff folds
w6o9p calls 80
BiggiePG1 calls 80
OzExorcist has 15 seconds left to act
OzExorcist raises to 310
SUGARWILLED has 15 seconds left to act
SUGARWILLED folds
Piero49 folds
Jiji82 folds
w6o9p calls 230
BiggiePG1 calls 230
*** FLOP *** [Jh 7c 6d]
w6o9p checks
BiggiePG1 has 15 seconds left to act
BiggiePG1 bets 1,210, and is all in
OzExorcist has 15 seconds left to act
OzExorcist calls 1,210
w6o9p folds

Two questions I guess - with the preflop bet I has hoping to thin the field down to one caller, but would have been happy enough if everybody folded. Should I have bet more? I figured a standard 3BB bet would just act as a pot sweetener, on reflection it probably wasn't enough for my purpose though. With one caller, I was hoping to either hit outright or just outplay the caller on the flop.

The other question is obviously the all-in - with the pre-flop action I didn't suspect a premium hand for this guy. When he hesitated for so long before moving in I figured him for a jack but no overcard, hence the call. What conclusions would you have drawn?

Third question I guess - am I just plain thinking too much for a freeroll? :smile:
 
DaveE

DaveE

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Just a "rule of thumb", but a raise of 3bb plus 1bb for every limper would probably taken down the pot (480 in this case).
Kind of risky in this situation, almost 1/4 of your stack, I would have just folded.
Looks like you might be up against a set now.
 
pigpen02

pigpen02

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JTo is not something I would call a raise with.
 
pigpen02

pigpen02

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But, according to my title, I am just an amateur and what do they know. :rolleyes:
 
RammerJammer

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I only play marginal hands on the button if I can limp them in and see a cheap flop. I apply the same rule to the button that I apply to the small blind...'don't play starters you wouldn't otherwise consider just because you're in the small blind (or on the button)'. I never raise preflop with them and I don't call a preflop raise with them. I would certainly include JT offsuit in that group. If I don't make some kind of hand on the flop (JJ or TT minimum), I muck. I don't want to go to the turn with nothing but a draw, unless it checks around for a free card.

And, yes, you're thinking too much for a freeroll. Or, more accurately, you're putting yourself in a position to HAVE to think too much. Marginal hands typically turn into hard decisions which require a lot of experience and finesse. You can greatly simplify your freerolling by treating everyone at the table like they're the biggest donk in the world. And you never try to put a move on a donk, 'cause he won't even comprehend it anyway. You wait until you have a really solid hand and take their chips. This isn't the most exciting poker you'll ever play, but it's effective for survival. And survival in a freeroll, or any MTT, is the name of the game.
 
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bw07507

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Guys, he is not calling a raise, he is the one raising. The raise preflop is fine, and its a freeroll, so calling the all in is fine too.
 
D

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Raising with a marginal hand earlyish in a freeroll seems a bit risky for me even with position. It's great if they fold but thats not likely with freeroll players meaning you have to make tough decisions with an average hand after the flop. I would proberly have limped.

Calling the allin with TPavK is a 50/50 for me. You went with your read which is fine but maybe mucking and waiting for a better opportunity would be ok as well.
 
RammerJammer

RammerJammer

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Guys, he is not calling a raise, he is the one raising. The raise preflop is fine, and its a freeroll, so calling the all in is fine too.
To each his own, but my point was that he went off course by even raising preflop in the first place with JT. Everything that happened afterward is a result of being invested too heavily with skimpy cards.

However, I can't be as kind to your contention that raising or calling all-in's indiscriminately is fine because "it's a freeroll". That's the mindset of a chronic donkey and the biggest reason why freerolls are so difficult to play without wanting to strangle someone.

Anyone who doesn't bring their "A" game every time they sit down at the table, whether it's play money, real money, or a freeroll tournament, is disrespecting the game, cheating themselves and their opponents, and developing bad poker habits. There's an old adage in sports...you play like you practice.
 
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bw07507

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Yes, start/keep posting hand histories in the HA section for hands that you're unsure about, etc, to get input about what could have been done differently. You're bound to hear a lot about folding preflop, but if you want to improve you'll really need to work on this aspect of your game.

Sorry if it sounds harsh, but based on what you've posted so far, you aren't good enough of a player yet to have such a high vpip. You're hemoraging cash and one likely cause of this is playing trash hands you shouldn't be in that wind up catching part of a flop causing you a difficult decision and you can't get away from them.

Believe it or not, there are some folks around here that know what they are talking about, so post in HA and take their input to heart. Your game will improve.

All I am saying is that the play in freerolls is so bad that I am willing to go broke on Top pair, decent kicker almost every time.

And donking in a freeroll is not disrespecting the game, sometimes if I am bored I will pull open a freeroll and go all in every time til I go broke. Sometimes if I get really lucky I have a huge chipstack and I will play it for real. I love when people get pissed at me for going all in every hand and sucking out on them too. I dont know what they are complaining about, they didnt lose any money.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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Thanks for the feedback guys, appreciate it. Here's the rest of the hand:

BiggiePG1 shows [As Jc]
OzExorcist shows [Jd Tc]
*** TURN *** [Jh 7c 6d] [Ah]
*** RIVER *** [Jh 7c 6d Ah] [4d]
BiggiePG1 shows two pair, Aces and Jacks
OzExorcist shows a pair of Jacks
BiggiePG1 wins the pot (3,550) with two pair, Aces and Jacks

So I was right about the jack, but wrong about him not having an overcard :eek: I'll keep the 3+xBB rule in mind and be more careful what I wish for in the future I guess!

I considered limping for a cheap flop briefly, but I was worried that I wouldn't have enough information to make a good call on the flop if I did that (or that people wouldn't believe any raises that I made on the flop - in their minds, I've already stolen a few decent-sized pots off them). Flopping Broadway would have been about the only outcome I would've felt comfortable with after limping.
 
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bhanacik

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I would have simply called the BB pre-flop.

Post-flop your really stuck - I don't see how you get away from this hand after the flop and all-in bet.
 
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