JJ love'm, hate'm

J

jsi

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I love'em when short-stacked with a low M. Just shove and hope for the best. But when I get the pocket bastards with a decent stack, i find it the trickiest hand to play right and not get into a ton of trouble... Case in point:

45 player Donk-N-Go, halfway through. The villain here is LAG or more like borderline maniac almost. Involved in almost every pot. Comes out firing HARD on almost any flop. Showed down some questionable hands to say the least. etc. you know the type...

I'm in EP next to act after an UTG LAG limper. EP, JJ, huge stack to my left, and the blinds are like 8-9% of my stack, i'm just thinking hit-n-run with the blinds would be a decent deal here, so i raise it up 5x...

pokerstars Game #12082074402: Tournament #61311492, $1.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2007/09/15 - 22:32:17 (ET)
Table '61311492 1' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: GaryMan1966 (1603 in chips)
Seat 2: sword98 (2813 in chips)
Seat 3: wink4 (4762 in chips)
Seat 4: jsirota (3612 in chips)
Seat 5: chris9902 (11499 in chips)
Seat 6: olmanbrenner (2240 in chips)
Seat 8: Joe Larue (1215 in chips)
Seat 9: Farmer69J (2032 in chips)
GaryMan1966: posts small blind 100
sword98: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jsirota [:jc4: :jd4:]
wink4: calls 200
jsirota: raises 800 to 1000
chris9902: folds
olmanbrenner: folds
Joe Larue: folds
Farmer69J: folds
GaryMan1966: folds
sword98: calls 800
wink4: folds
*** FLOP *** [:8c4: :kd4: :7c4:]
sword98: checks
jsirota: checks
*** TURN *** [:8c4: :kd4: :7c4:] [:9s4:]
sword98: bets 1200
jsirota: ????

I was so much expecting the villain to bet the flop as usual, i pretty much panicked and checked. Then comes the 1200 bet.

Now what????
 
stormswa

stormswa

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Dec 31, 2006
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3,546
here is your problem without betting the flop you have no idea where you stand in the hand. If you would of bet 1/2 -2/3 pot on flop you could of seen cheaply how good your hand is. 1/2-2/3 does the same thing as a full pot size bet. Now if you call this turn bet I think you are pretty much over commiting yourself to this hand and will have to go all the way down. I dont think you can call this here, I think you either need to shove while you have fold equity or just fold and wait for better spot.

there is no clear cut answer here, but calling is bad.


oh I just noticed after he bets 1200 he only has 600 chips left, this is a clear fold because of that. He will not fold if you push no chance in the world. Yes it is possible he is doing this with a draw but more likely its something like KQ or KJ. Or even JT for the turned straight.
 
Flops'm&Bets'm

Flops'm&Bets'm

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Fold!!
Hes got K-9 ..LAG /Maniac called the pre-flop raise
beyond marginal to call, but the reputation..
..Big bet is enticing you to buy into the pot to recover the PF raise.
Hoping you have a A-K (standard raise pre-flop).
Or yet, Villian is trying to force you off the hand against hitting a straight.
VS. his 2 pr.
I will push 2 pair to get a fold or a chase call..(riverstars though..LOL)
You fold you still have a 'battle' stack to get the nuts on him 'on the FLOP'
and punish later.. (I realize the straight draw is hypnotizing)
But - chase and get tired, be sure and can lure!
 
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M

mvsub1

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Sep 8, 2007
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I would fold. You have only 1000 chips in the pot. So you got enough left to game on.

There are too many hands that could beat you. Of course it could be a (semi-)bluff to get you out of the hand. But I wouldn't risk almost all my stack that out or on seeing the river trying to hit a straight.

Like stormswa already said, it would have been better if you'd bet the flop.
 
J

jsi

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Sorta agree with storm here that a bet on the flop was needed here to define the hand. However at the time, the villain's check got me stumped. A check from a lag/maniac too often represents a monster, perhaps a set. And 1/2-2/3 pot bet there is a large chunk of my stack, leaving me pot committed anyways. Then my own check on the flop was perhaps read as a weakness and ensured villain's big bet on the turn.

The real problem as i see it in after-analysis is the over-raise PF. A 3x raise would have probably ended-up with the same result and a much easier decision ATF.
 
A

altruist

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Aug 2, 2007
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i'm just thinking hit-n-run with the blinds would be a decent deal here

I agree. I'd personally just push all-in with JJ.

Yes, a better hand like QQ, KK, AA would likely eliminate me out of the tournament, but like you said you're short-stacked. You need to take this chance. Additionally going all-in tends to encourage people to call you with weak holdings. If someone re-raised you, could you really fold with 1000 chips invested?

Assuming you don't get called, you'd win the blinds without any confrontation and risk, which is a nice small victory with your stack size.
 
W

Wlokos

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I don't really agree with any part of your hand here.

I would have raised less on the flop. The blinds aren't big enough to really be worth stealing yet, especially considering that you're the third largest stack at your table. I'd raise to, say, 600, to try to isolate another hand (but fold if a reraise gets tossed out preflop), and then bet hard if there aren't any overcards on the flop.

As it is, when the flop hits and it's checked to you, you've really got to bet it out. The pot's around 2000 and you have around 2.5k left, which makes it a little tricky to make a decent bet without potentially losing a lot of chips, but I'd say a bet of 1200 or so would be best. If he folds, great, if he raises, get out, and if he calls, be very careful.

In the situation you ended up in, though, I would definitely fold. If he was trying to bluff you out, he'd probably go all in, and at absolute best you might find yourself against a semi-bluff, but that's doubtful.

Next time, try to lead the hand. If it's you and one other person on a sorta-scary board and you've got mid pair, when it checks to you, you want to bet and be the one that gets the fold equity and that makes the other person really worry.
 
J

jsi

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Indeed. I dont really agree with any part of the hand myself either.

jsirota: raises 1412 to 2612 and is all-in
sword98: calls 613 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [:8c4: :kd4: :7c4: :9s4:] [:5s4:]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
sword98: shows [:6s4: :6c4:] (a straight, Five to Nine)
jsirota: shows [:jc4: :jd4:] (a pair of Jacks)
sword98 collected 5926 from pot




A solid bet on the flop would have probably taken down the pot. As it turned out, villain picked up an OSD and after the turn bet was pretty much committed to call my shove, which i missed as well during the play. Ah well, ended-up being a bad beat that left me somewhat crippled, however i still managed a come-back and ended up solidly in the money. 4th iirc...
 
M

maltz

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Yes. If you re-raised pre flop, there is no way you should not bet the flop unless you flopped the absolute nuts (your opponent can never improve above you).

In your case your opponent sensed your weakness and attempted a semi-bluff. You made a good read and pushed. Your opponent pushed reluctantly, but got lucky.
 
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