H2H SnG, rivered straight

[robwhufc]

2nd hand, so no history - won 1st pot with Full House (bet not called on river). What is my best line here?

pokerstars Game #18112079958: Tournament #91938156, $55.00+$2.50 Hold'em No Limit - Match Round I, Level I (10/20) - 2008/06/13 - 15:15:12 (ET)
Table '91938156 1' 2-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: robwhufc (1850 in chips)
Seat 2: searching (1150 in chips)
robwhufc: posts small blind 10
searching: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to robwhufc [8s 7h]
searching: raises 40 to 60
robwhufc: calls 40
*** FLOP *** [Td 9h 8d]
robwhufc: checks
searching: checks
*** TURN *** [Td 9h 8d] [8h]
robwhufc: checks
searching: bets 100
robwhufc: calls 100
*** RIVER *** [Td 9h 8d 8h] [6c]
robwhufc: checks
searching: bets 120
robwhufc: ???????

 

[JimmyBrizzy]

Did you check to induce a bluff?

If you did it worked so either call or reraise.

I could see that you are a little scared of the full house since his bet looks like a value bet, and since it is only the second hand and you have no reads. Also the chance of pairs, high card and same straight.

I might actually lean towards a call here. Even if we are sure we have the best hand we get to see what he was playing with, what he raised, checked, bet, bet with.

If you raise there is a chance he folds and then you have no idea what he had. A little trickier is if he reraises you, then you may have to think about the full house possibilities although you are probably still calling with a straight in HU action.

Just calling him down with a straight also may make him wonder about your play and why you didn't reraise if he only has a pair or high card.

Lots of possibilities, but I would probably call myself.

 

[viking999]

I like a call as played for the same reasons as already mentioned.

I'm really wondering why you only called the turn? Trips with an open ender is big, but the board is draw heavy. You could easily end up losing or chopping on the river.

P.S.: Regarding a raise. The straight is likely the best hand or a chop, but I don't see a raise getting called by many worse hands. Even A8 should fold to a raise, though a bad player might not.

 

[Steveg1976]

First of all I don't normally play these stakes so I am just taking a stab.

I think call is the best move here. By only calling in this spot you take away the check raise if that is his play and your hand is certainly worth a call here. A huge check raise even if it is a bluff or an over played pair might push you off the winning hand in this case.

If this were later and you knew more about your opponent your options might change but I think simple is best in this spot.

 

[robwhufc]

I'm actually really surprised, 3 good players have all said "call".

I lied a bit, I was actually the other side of the hand (I retyped the names).

P.S.: Regarding a raise. The straight is likely the best hand or a chop, but I don't see a raise getting called by many worse hands. Even A8 should fold to a raise, though a bad player might not.

A8 is close, I had K8 and I was value betting it (and yep, I would have called a raise, albeit grudgingly). Although it was a very drawy board, there were plenty of hands i thought i could get value from (top pair, 2 pair) I was pretty shocked when I saw what he only called with.

 

[switch0723]

Please leave more time for replies Rob

I don't think we should ever be flat calling that river, raise it every single time. Heads up, villain is likely to call with an 8 or top 2 or over pair etc, but may also overthink it and think we are repping the straight and end up calling with top pair or even middle pair if they are loose.

PS, I don't like checking the river either in this spot, much prefer to lead out on the river, after raising the turn aswell

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

I don't think we should ever be flat calling that river, raise it every single time. Heads up, villain is likely to call with an 8 or top 2 or over pair etc, but may also overthink it and think we are repping the straight and end up calling with top pair or even middle pair if they are loose.

I dunno, I'm not saying raising is wrong here because I'm tired and can't decide, but there's very little chance that an overpair or TPGK checks that flop in position, plus 8x is statistically unlikely as we have an 8 in our hand, which leaves us with basically T9 in villain's feasible range that he might possibly call a c/r with that we beat (but T9 will also often lead the flop). On the other hand we have under-repped our hand somewhat, so we may get the odd very loose herocall.

As for the hand in general, I'm not sure why we're being so passive with a flopped pair+OESD and turned trips on a draw heavy board. If we lead the river here it looks like either a very strong hand or a bluff, and if villain is inclined to think the latter a river lead may well get looked up by all sorts of hands. Checking the river just creates an awkward decision.

 

[CfPoker]

I've not read your response so don't know how this turned out

2nd hand, so no history - won 1st pot with Full House (bet not called on river). What is my best line here?

PokerStars Game #18112079958: Tournament #91938156, $55.00+$2.50 Hold'em No Limit - Match Round I, Level I (10/20) - 2008/06/13 - 15:15:12 (ET)
Table '91938156 1' 2-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: robwhufc (1850 in chips)
Seat 2: searching (1150 in chips)
robwhufc: posts small blind 10
searching: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to robwhufc [8s 7h]
searching: raises 40 to 60
robwhufc: calls 40 fine
*** FLOP *** [Td 9h 8d]
robwhufc: checks also fine, though i'd probably bet out myself
searching: checks
*** TURN *** [Td 9h 8d] <font color='red'>8♥</font>
robwhufc: checks i'd bet here, trips with OESD we need to start building the pot
searching: bets 100
robwhufc: calls 100 raise it up! get some money in the pot
*** RIVER *** [Td 9h 8d 8h] <font color='black'>6♣</font>
robwhufc: checks i don't mind this check, you've hardly shown any strength in this hand so villian may well go for a bluff
searching: bets 120
robwhufc: ??????? and he did. however, just call. apart from 8x (which is unlikely as you have one of them) i don't see him calling a raise with a hand that you beat. if you raise and get reraised you're now in a tricky spot with what is most likely the 2nd best hand.

 

[OzExorcist]

But FWIW, if I were the player holding 78 I'd lead both the flop and turn on this one:

- Good chance we'd have the best hand
- We'll likely get action from worse hands (paint cards and draws should often give us action)
- We've got a draw ourselves to fall back on, but it's only really half a draw (we don't want to hit a J, for fear of the over-straight) and we don't want to let the villain draw at a flush or the better straight cheaply

As played, I don't mind just calling the river with that hand: there's hands that can beat us, but there's no way we're folding. And...

...there's a meta-game consideration in this for me too: if we flat call this and win, great. If we call and lose, however, we still maintain the chip lead by a small-ish margin. Heads up, I'm much happier if I've got the lead. If we raise, get called and lose the hand, we risk not only losing the lead, but giving it to our opponent with a much bigger margin. That's not a fun place to have to play back out of.

 

[Inscore77]

I'm re-raising this to between 360-425

 

[OzExorcist]

I'm re-raising this to between 360-425

Actually, this just made me think of something else:

If we re-raise, what's our plan if villain shoves over the top?

 

[switch0723]

^^ Fold, since at best we are splitting unless villain is a spewtard

 

[Steveg1976]

^^ Fold, since at best we are splitting unless villain is a spewtard

Which is exactly the reason that I made the case for just a call in this case. We do not want to be pushed off of what turned out to be the winning hand.

 

[switch0723]

Indeed Steve, there does seem to be a thin line between whether calling or raising is the best option.

I honestly don't know anymore, since i feel a raise can still get action from worse hands, but there are also hands which can come over the top on bluffs or hands that have us crushed.

I just don't know anymore, i suppose its all read dependant, but against an unknown either action seems suitable

 

[Steveg1976]

What stood out the most to me on this hand was the fact that this is only the 2nd hand. Way too many ways the villian could play this. Calling may loose on this hand but it greatly reduces the number of mistakes that we can make.

 

[switch0723]

Now ive seen it a lot of times and really thought about it, Steve makes a fair point and i know think calling is just about the best option. Only slightly, but does seem the safest way.

I prefer leading out and not being in this position anyway imo

 

[Silkroad]

Many people thought it should be a call. I'm trying to analyze this hand a little more. Just commenting on the river action, I'd try to guess what searching has

If he has pair
If he has trips or a set
If he has a straight
If he has a full house

Raise -> we want worse hands to call, better hands to fold
If he has pair, he'll fold
If he has trips or a set, he may or may not call
If he has a straight, he'll call or re-raise
If he has a full house, he'll re-raise for sure

Call -> end of story

Conclusion
You win if he has pair or trips, but you're unlikely to win any more trips even if you raise
You lose / split if he has straight or full house, and you will surely lose any more chips if you raise than call
Balancing the upside vs downside, I'd agree with others that this is a Call

It'd be hard to fold this hand:icon_sant

 

[ukaliks]

Mayb i would of raised alot more than 100 on the turn if u hit trips to try cancell him out of hittin a str8. With no reads aswell i would of played this very aggressive. Mayb going all in on the turn since its heads-up. Ur hand is massive trips with a K kicker. He could of had the ace kicker or full-house, if he did then u would of lost the hand anyways. Thats y u shud of been more aggressive instead of tryin to bet low n tryin to get him to call you.