$Freeroll NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: JJ and bad fold

[jaworek1405]

poker stars No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker Stars Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

Hero (CO) (t2,335)
Button (t1,532)
SB (t1,360)
BB (t1,450)
UTG (t1,280)
UTG+1 (t1,913)
MP1 (t1,465)
MP2 (t1,395)
MP3 (t1,530)

Hero's M: 51.89

Preflop: Hero is CO with

,

1 fold, UTG+1 raises t90, 3 folds, Hero calls t90, Button raises t280, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls t190, Hero calls t190

Flop: (t885)

,

,

(3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks, Button bets t270, UTG+1 calls t270, Hero folds

Turn: (t1,425)

(2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Button checks

River: (t1,425)

(2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Button checks

Total pot: t1,425

Results below:

Spoiler

Button didn't show
UTG+1 had 10

, 10

(two pair, tens and sevens).
Outcome: UTG+1 won t1,425

It was CC freeroll, 63 players in tournament. What do you think about this JJ? With JJ I want to see only the flop, maybe 3bet pre flop would be better? The flop - I think one of opponents has K in his range, I fold. Bad read. If UTG fold to cbet, I would call, but when he called I think that somebody has a K.

 

[baudib1]

shove pre after UTG flats 3 bet.

 

[ccocco]

perhaps you would have to have done a raise chek to see if I was bluffing.

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

haven't looked yet, i'm not folding flop there with JJ

ship pre after the squeeze, because yeah.. its a freeroll

 

[DaBrowner]

check raise after flop, to see where your at.

 

[Rldetheflop]

shove pre after UTG flats 3 bet.

haven't looked yet, i'm not folding flop there with JJ

ship pre after the squeeze, because yeah.. its a freeroll

What? 4bet shove 50 blinds effective at this stage? This is a CC freeroll so not your typical freeroll and you are NEVER getting called by worse and are crushed a large part of the time.

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

CC freeroll don't have some kind of prestige or anything.. its still a freeroll and so the players are in general going to be worse than people playing normal tournaments.

that means they make more mistakes.

we have the 4th nuts, BTN can be light, UTG capped his range by flatting the squeeze so if he ever has us beat its QQ and thats pretty rare he doesn't 4bet that.

9bb squeeze + all the money already in makes it a shove > 4betting small. + with the other guy in still we either have to 4bet to like 25bb at smallest (50% of our stack) to get folds or shove. (4b to 750 might not even be big enough)

winning the pot there gets us a 30% stack increase anyway so winning the pot outright is pretty good as well.

ship it pre.

 

[cpgd176]

i agree with OMGITSOVER9K. I think as played, a shove pre would be the best option.

However, I would've liked to have seen a 3bet preflop to 220-270 to try to isolate the utg+1 player. The rest of the hand would be much easier to play in position (if just utg+1 calls) and with the betting lead (assuming we are not 4bet)

As played though, I think your hand is too strong on the flop to fold. Yes, someone could have a King but they could also have QT, JT, 9x, flush draws. So many draws there and utg+1 could just be calling with a 9x hand thinking that the button player is just making a standard cbet and hoping everyone missed. That being said, you can argue folding here as well, considering there aren't too many turn cards that are good for our hand. Even turning a J, can be somewhat problematic.

Overall, you had to go with your read on this situation and the two players in the hand. I don't mind your fold, however I think I would've called atleast one street.

 

[spiderman637]

Your check post flop was abig mistake, where u handed over the advantage to bluff to UTG+1...I advice u to make a pot bet post flop when u get in that situation next time...
Never give a preflop raiser an advantage to raise first post flop(that second raise can be used as a very strong bluff) unless ur limping...And remember u should never bet small postflop with that kind of hand and that kind of flop...make ur hand look bigger and thats done with ur betting size !!!

 

[Rldetheflop]

CC freeroll don't have some kind of prestige or anything.. its still a freeroll and so the players are in general going to be worse than people playing normal tournaments.

that means they make more mistakes.

we have the 4th nuts, BTN can be light, UTG capped his range by flatting the squeeze so if he ever has us beat its QQ and thats pretty rare he doesn't 4bet that.

9bb squeeze + all the money already in makes it a shove > 4betting small. + with the other guy in still we either have to 4bet to like 25bb at smallest (50% of our stack) to get folds or shove. (4b to 750 might not even be big enough)

winning the pot there gets us a 30% stack increase anyway so winning the pot outright is pretty good as well.

ship it pre.

A lot of that makes sense but I will have to disagree that a CC freeroll doesn't have better play than a regular tourney(low stakes at least). That is not to say that everyone in the FR club is great but there are several solid players more than would be in your typical low stakes MTT.

And I definitely agree that we are not 4b anything but AI.

 

[RamdeeBen]

Yeah, just shove pre once button raises here and you get a flat call flat.

Problem with flatting here is that there's just to much money in the pot pre flop and JJ is way to strong to try and set mine in a tournament given the action in front it's going to be super profitable to just shove over. If you really want to flat, then you have to be willing to get it all in on the flop, don't put in a good chunk of your stack with such a good hand that you are going to fold the flop, given the size of the pot already, folding isn't really an option. I'd rather you fold pre flop than flat and fold on the flop.

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

^ YES

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

I haven't looked at the spoiler yet.......Ideally, you 3bet the initial raiser before the button even becomes involved.

When you flat, the whole hand goes sort of wonky but I guess you could go all in preflop after the button squeeze and then flat call from initial raiser....

On the flop you should bet when checked to. I THINK THAT IS THE BIGGEST MISTAKE OF THE HAND!! when you fail to bet, you give the button a free license to bluff.

once the UTG player calls the button's flop bet, I too would fold at this point, only because I've played the hand so weakly so far and I've failed to gain any information and the pot is starting to get big with one overcard, so now I'd just give up because 2 players are interested in the pot.

I'd go take a shot, sing some karaoke, take another shot then come back when I'm not too scared to play Pocket Jacks in a freeroll!

 

[trent32la]

remember....your in a freeroll...you have nothing to lose...however in my opinion in that spot you need to be 3betting JJ preflop everytime...however I gotta agree with jacki on this one....you should be cbetting 80% of the time and repping a king....by checking behind you've now lost all pot control and pretty much the whole pot and your giving your opponent the green light to bet the turn!!

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

we're not cbetting, we don't have the lead?

leading here in a 3bet pot 3way achieves nothing really.. because clearly we don't want the BTN to bluff do we?

..come on.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

we're not cbetting, we don't have the lead?

leading here in a 3bet pot 3way achieves nothing really.. because clearly we don't want the BTN to bluff do we?

..come on.

well yeah the hand is frakked from the get go because we're playing it passive, so we've arrived at the flop in sub-optimal fashion. It happens. I find myself looking at flops sometimes thinking "Damn! Why am I having to make this decision right now? Why didn't I play better preflop?" but still...we sometimes find ourselves there and we must charge forward.

There is a purpose of betting when the first player checks, and that purpose is to make the hand easier for us to play on future streets. (i.e. informational/probe bet)

If we check/call the flop we've taken no initiative and gained no information, and we're still out of position to boot.

If we check/fold the flop (which is what we did) we are giving way too much credit to the button and just giving up to 1 overcard when we still hold a very strong hand.

And if we check raise, as some players suggest we've just spent more of our stack to find out roughly the same information...but we can pretty much rule out the hero check raising on a K high board since hero didn't even 3 bet preflop...that is clearly not gonna be in the hero's comfort zone...he was basically set mining with JJ...

 

[DonV73]

I would have reraised preflop but give respect when UTG+1 4bets and fold then.

 

[Rldetheflop]

I would have reraised preflop but give respect when UTG+1 4bets and fold then.

UTG+1 didn't 4bet he just flatted button's 3bet.

 

[OMGITSOVER9K]

well yeah the hand is frakked from the get go because we're playing it passive, so we've arrived at the flop in sub-optimal fashion. It happens. I find myself looking at flops sometimes thinking "Damn! Why am I having to make this decision right now? Why didn't I play better preflop?" but still...we sometimes find ourselves there and we must charge forward.

There is a purpose of betting when the first player checks, and that purpose is to make the hand easier for us to play on future streets. (i.e. informational/probe bet)

If we check/call the flop we've taken no initiative and gained no information, and we're still out of position to boot.

If we check/fold the flop (which is what we did) we are giving way too much credit to the button and just giving up to 1 overcard when we still hold a very strong hand.

And if we check raise, as some players suggest we've just spent more of our stack to find out roughly the same information...but we can pretty much rule out the hero check raising on a K high board since hero didn't even 3 bet preflop...that is clearly not gonna be in the hero's comfort zone...he was basically set mining with JJ...

agree with the 1st paragraph but..

donking for information 3way in a 3bet pot makes no sense, we get called when we're beat and get worse to fold so we basically just lose money by doing it.

we can get floated by FD's/etc and end up x/fing turns to worse sometimes as well so we either donk/x-f turn which loses us chips or donk/x-c turn which loses us even more chips

when we x/c here our range is normally pretty strong and BTN is unlikely to continue without Kx, even his FD's probably take a card since our range is like TT/JJ?/Kx/FD's so basically his turn shoving range is pretty much just AK

if BTN's light here removing the air from his range makes no sense, + when we check to the raiser when he bets UTG+1 is put in a tough spot (similar to a squeeze preflop) where he doesn't know whether WE have a good hand so has to fold a lot of his range on the flop.. as opposed to donking which could get BTN to fold all his air and play vs UTG's capped middling range which can include some better hands.

we're only getting one street of 'value' here so might as well be vs the most air heavy range right?

tl;dr - donking here is bad and puts us in gay spots on the turn when we get called by either villain.

probe bets are retarded in general.

 

[jj20002]

been a freeroll everything is possible

let´s see the possibilities:

somebody has a K,

playing with tight guys it should be:

AK or KK

somebody got a set (including kings)

somebody has AA

but in a freeroll there are so many styles, that you can see people doing the most incredible things (sometimes the most stupidest things)