$ FL Stud8 MTT:

[rhoudini]

Game

7 Card Stud H/L

Game Format

Fixed Limit

Table Format

MTT

Freeroll

1. Freeroll

Game Options

1. Turbo

Currency

$

Hey guys, this was a hand that I've played on Replay Poker stud hi-lo free tournament, and it left me with so many questions. I think the way I played is not terrible, but are those the best decisions to be taken? Is the logical reasoning correct? How would you have played this hand?

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Limits: 2,000/4,000/400 (800 bring-in) 7-handed
Effective stacks: 18,800
My cards: (A♠7♠) Q♠

3rd street: P1 brings-in (2♦), P2 with K♣ folds, P3 with 7♦ calls, P4 with K♦ folds, I call on HJ, P6 with J♣ folds and P7 with Q♦ calls.

Here I opt to just call despite all spades are live, because my hand is not connected at all. One Q is out, another 7 too. Also the stacks are quite short. What to you guys think?

5-way pot with 6,800. Now I have A♠7♠Q♠3♠
4th street: P7 (Q♦Q♥) bets 2,000. P1 (2♦6♠) calls. P3 (7♦5♠) calls. P4 (K♦T♣) folds. I call.

Here P7 gets a pair, but it is really unlikely he has three queens. P1 and P3 don't seem to have a great low draw. My hand improves both for high and low, but now 2 spades are out. Here would be a good spot to raise? At the moment I called because stacks are short and I would like to see more people in the hand, to maybe raise on future streets and get more value from P1 and P3 trying to reach their low hands. Also maybe getting paid from P7 that can already have two-pair, or he might think we are on a low draw.

4-way pot with 14,800. Now I have A♠7♠Q♠3♠9♣.
5th street: P7 (Q♦Q♥2♣) bets 4,000. P1 (2♦6♠Q♣) calls. P3 (7♦5♠K♥) calls. I call.

Bad card for me. But again standard to call with our flush draw and 2 spades out?

4-way pot with 30,800. Now I have A♠7♠Q♠3♠9♣6♣.
6th street: P7 (Q♦Q♥2♣2♠) bets 4,000. P1 (2♦6♠Q♣T♠) calls. P3 (7♦5♠K♥8♠) calls. I call.

Here if didn't get a low card, I think it is bad for me to keep chasing the flush with 3 more spades out.
For P1 to call, only if he is on a 4-card low draw, and P3 may have already a low (would he have bet if he had?), but my draw is better than his 8-low draw.
But with flushdraw (even with just 4 outs) + reasonable 7-low draw, we need to call 6th, right?

4-way pot with 46,800. Now I have A♠7♠Q♠3♠9♣6♣7♥.
7th street: P7 (Q♦Q♥2♣2♠) bets 4,000. P1 (2♦6♠Q♣T♠) calls. P3 (7♦5♠K♥8♠) folds. I fold.

And we get nothing. I fold with much shorter stack than when I started the hand. Was it just a bad run, or bad play?

 

[dallam]

part1

Hi, first of all congratulations for this very detailed hand-review! You sure put a huge work in it, and it's totally giving back that Stud H/L feeling well.

I'm playing mixed games for a very long time now, and apart from Omaha I would advice to not to play them simultaneously with other games.


In Stud H/L your hand and party is already started once the 3 card is dealt for everyone at the table. You just about to have huge information pieces about what cards are OUT. Obviously things are happening fast, so you don't have time to write or memorise all of them perfectly. So memorise those cards which generating your future Outs!
I improved a method in myself to be able to follow things smoother, don't know if you agree or not, but it helps me so you may can use it too.

You're dealt cards are:
First look:
- What pairs are out from our dealt hand: A-7-Q ? [[Looking which cards from our HIGH combination pairs are out]] (one 7 and one Q)
- How many lows are out apart from those lows we have? [[If we can possible hit the LOW with our hands how many lows are out]] (one 2)
- If it's a thing, how many flush cards are out? [[None, in fact we have 3 spades]]

Stud H/L is starting with very quick but perfect observing and counting. I'd suggest you that even when you're folding do this, cause it tells from the players more. Keep doing notes.


Another thing is that even it's a fixed game, you have to raise / call / fold some specific combinations, or even playing opponent-dependent game. So notes are very important once to decide what we wanna do.
As in normal case there can be one winner for the High pot, one for the Low, you not aiming to play all parties in a multiway, also stack sizes can balance your actions. In general we 're not bluffing that much, however sometimes it's actually doable or even rewardable. Remember, you all see each other's visible hands only, actions are based on how they mainly connecting or possibly connecting with the non-visible ones.

 

[BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch]

This is the classic trap hand for many people. This is only playable in a cash game or the very beginning of a stud8 tourn but definitely not at that stage.

Issue #1: blinds are 2/4k and you have 18k so unless that's played very softly you're going to be putting in a big chunk of your stack on the table and you don't want this with that hand.

The only way you can really play this is you have the bring in with Q in the hole and the 2 in the door and that's it, that's it.

Issue #2 The hand is one of those in between but not going anywhere tricky trap hands that are really hard to play and again where too many people over commit their stacks.

You have the nut flush draw but the cards aren't that good because when you see other folks playing a low like in that hand then its a good chance one of them have an ace in the hole so its dead
especially with something with a wheel draw like 2-5 in the door, there is a good chance they have the ace or at least something connecting for a possible wheel daw for the chance for the high and to scoop the pot. So that ace is more than likely out. LOL but thats assuming you're not playing a table of beginners drawing to an 8 low with the 2 or something in the door that doesnt remotly connect for a chance for a scoop unless they get uber lucky, lol.

Then you have a Q already out so the chances of that pairing go down the drain.

And you have A7 for only a low but 2 other more players likely chasing a low so thats additional low cards already out so getting a 7 low is going to be difficult! And the high side doesn't look good either since an ace and the queen are out, lol .

Do you see where I'm going ? You're going to have trouble going low and high and you're going to be stuck inbetween and that's not where you want to be for a big chunk of your chips.

The only thing you have is the nut flush draw.

I'm not going to add the rest but I would really suggest thinking about blind structure and these tricky, trappy hands and realize how much you're actually going to put into the pot before committing.

But the best experience is actually to lose with them so the lessons actually have a chance to stick.

In order to play this game you have to know how the hand is more than likely going to play out then weigh the risk to reward.

The way you're trying to describe your thought process is reactionary as the cards come on the streets but I'm telling you that you have know or at least have an idea whats coming on the streets because again, at that level you're going to be committing a lot of chips or someone could have the low locked up or you're way behind.

I can tell you what my cards are going to come on the next street from experience while playing multiple tables and I might be off like a card or the card comes out on the person's board right before me, lol.

You'll just know from your hand, whats out and experience. Don't be reactionary though, know whats going to more than likely happen.

I can rant about stud8 all day long, lol, just be mindful of these tempting hands and committing your stack in that spot. lol GL

I love stud variants.

 

[rhoudini]

part1

Hi, first of all congratulations for this very detailed hand-review! You sure put a huge work in it, and it's totally giving back that Stud H/L feeling well.

Thank you, this was really tough to make, took me almost 1 hour, but now I saved this template for future hands
Thank you so much for your comment, dallam! As you said "Part 1" I should wait part 2, right? If yes, I will wait before pointing what stands out for me like in the post of BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch.

This is the classic trap hand for many people. This is only playable in a cash game or the very beginning of a stud8 tourn but definitely not at that stage.

Wow!! First of all, thank you so much for this detailed comment, BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch!!! This first sentence already says a lot! I understood what you said. In fact, I am still at the beginning of my "stud career", therefore it will probably be as you said: "But the best experience is actually to lose with them so the lessons actually have a chance to stick."

Thinking about what you said, makes a lot of sense. You said: "You're going to have trouble going low and high and you're going to be stuck inbetween and that's not where you want to be for a big chunk of your chips."
And that's pretty much what happened... I think I have to work out my hand selection for tournaments when stacks are relativelly small.

I have just one more question. You said, "The way you're trying to describe your thought process is reactionary as the cards come on the streets."
Do you have any suggestions on how to stop being reactionary? For me as a beginner the way I thought at the moment and also the way I described the hand is quite natural. But not everything that is natural is actually good. Any tips on how to do it, please?

And again, thank you so much for your analysis, I am really thankful for your time and effort. I hope in future there are more hands for us to discuss.

 

[BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch]

I think you played that hand fine and I wouldn't be surprised if most of the folks you played against weren't looking at other people's boards but played off their own boards and didn't consider dead cards.

So yeah, good job but what I was trying to hint at was even if you have certain knowledge, you have to think about different ways you can use it and that really only comes from experience and trying to improve that skill so you can do it almost automatically.

Even when you think you have mastered something there are ways to expand it and improve it like if you can do it at one table then do it at 2 then 3 then 4 then and get so you know exactly what to do instantly and under different conditions like full table or short table, against aggressive jamming donks or calling stations or tight players, etc.

And also, in that example of yours there are a few uses of dead cards besides how they can help your hand so as you become more aware of topics just try to think critically of how you could apply that to different situations to the game you're playing and in other games (hint hint, lol).

Just keep going and try to enjoy the games, most of all. Its good to learn stuff but again, find ways to apply it and know when and how to apply it. And that only comes from thinking and experimenting and not being afraid to question ideas regardless of where they come from.

Ok, no more rant, watch out for the trap hands, be aware of tournament structure and GL with the games and most importantly, have fun!!! lol

 

[dallam]

@rhoudini Sorry, I'm having laptop charger problems, so I was not around the thread.

Yeah, I wanted to split into prob. 2 parts cause it's very long to give a feedback on such a hand like this in Stud H/L. You have to take consideration things very fast there, although your brain is totally capable of to do - but in writing it is just looking long, and maybe complicated.

I made a mistake at the first comment tho. If you have a hand like 9-8-7 you not wanna looking for pairs, all I wanted to point out is to worth looking for best possible options for H & L at the 3rd street, and seeing which of our outs are already blocked. For me it's easier to looking after the colours of the cards since I use 4-coloured deck and it helps my vision. But the impact is on trying to measure your current and upcoming situation here, the way is up to you, as you probably already doing pieces or the whole from it according this punctual hand history.

Well, first of all, do you have here 6.5bbs?
It's a very small amount. So if we're getting to a party, we will probably put our whole stack in once we seeing further streets in any. So the question here is good?

part2
- I don't like the Q in it for sure, I would love to see something connected to our lower Ace or our Seven. And we lost a Q and a 7 too. So Ace is nice obviously, but we are more likely gonna chase the flush. A7 for low is okay right now, but here we also need combinations which consist 3 lows in 4 cards. But on the other hand, NO spades are out, so we may can count with even 10 in the deck, and also no Ace is out so we might can hit one, and just a Deuce went out. They cover themselves well, our 7 is visible, but we probably won't be able to bluff on it, so it might not matter that much. So putting in 0.3bb bringin is actually reasonable.

4th street: We need to hit a ♠️ or 2/3/4/5/6/8?/A to ever continue. is way too good.
QQ is raising (only one Q in the whole deck), P1-P3 calls with 2 low cards. As you each are low as you said, reraise here not an option with these small cards. Two ♠️ are out, and since two low-looking hand called the bet, we might miss the connection down there. Although it's still a call.

5th street: is bad. We could be even agreed on pairing up on this street, but this number just gets us nowhere, maybe only to the dust without luck. So P1 still pushing, now with QQ2 and 2bbs. The thing is here, this person Can't have the 4th Queen since it's out in your hands.
We still left tho with 8 cards to Flush at best. And a runner-runner low combination or high two pairs or sets. (Lows are likely out, Ace(s) can be two since 2 other players still in).
So yeah, this is the street where the blind raises are doubled. If we call, we gonna gamble here. We can also hero fold if it's worthy for you to stayin alive and picking a better combination to dying in.

6th street: QQ22 now visibly has probably 3 pairs. And 3 outs to FH. gave a chance to the low, although other two still calling. Which is bad cause they must block many cards. ♠️s are looking pretty poor too. So it's gonna be probably a bad set-up for us, but if we gambled the latest street, we don't have now chips to turning back here.

7th street: Failed to hit, and just fold left.

Conclusion: I'd probably play this hand the same. Although 3rd street we could fold this as it's being a huge mutliway, and we needed almost a perferct 4th street to being really strong. The other realistic fold option was at street 5, where we lost two spades and a realistic chance to a back-up low. Even tho I seriously believed you not made serious mistakes by calling.
So thanks for this hand, this was interpreted meaningful, and even showed how fun and sometimes cruel this game can be.

Good luck!

 

[rhoudini]

@rhoudini Sorry, I'm having laptop charger problems, so I was not around the thread.

Yeah, I wanted to split into prob. 2 parts cause it's very long to give a feedback on such a hand like this in Stud H/L. You have to take consideration things very fast there, although your brain is totally capable of to do - but in writing it is just looking long, and maybe complicated.

Conclusion: I'd probably play this hand the same. Although 3rd street we could fold this as it's being a huge mutliway, and we needed almost a perferct 4th street to being really strong. The other realistic fold option was at street 5, where we lost two spades and a realistic chance to a back-up low. Even tho I seriously believed you not made serious mistakes by calling.
So thanks for this hand, this was interpreted meaningful, and even showed how fun and sometimes cruel this game can be.

Good luck!

WOOOW, thank you so much for this detailed comment, dallam!!! I really appreciate your effort to help!! It was very clear and I could understand everything you said.

I just need to point out that the was my up card, not the . This probably makes my hand lose a little bit of value? I was thinking now: with a Q up, some skilled experienced player would probably know that I must have 3 spades to motivate me playing this hand (again, all spades are live), or split queens, or a pocket pair. Split queens become really unlikely when P7 gets QQ up. Therefore it is quite easy to guess my hand, huh?

Probably the best was really waiting for a better hand. I probably should have folded on 5th as you pointed out, because the brick is terrible, probably the worst card possible in the entire deck. It was not worthy continuing. If it was the 8c I could continue.

If it was a cash game, ok, I think it is ok to play like this, but in a tournament, there are better spots to invest the last chips.

Again, thank you so much for your comments, it was great to learn with you!!

P.S.: when you said, "QQ22 now visibly has probably 3 pairs", you were right! He had pocket 9s along with his QQ22. Nice read!

 

[dallam]

I just need to point out that the was my up card, not the . This probably makes my hand lose a little bit of value? I was thinking now: with a Q up, some skilled experienced player would probably know that I must have 3 spades to motivate me playing this hand (again, all spades are live), or split queens, or a pocket pair. Split queens become really unlikely when P7 gets QQ up. Therefore it is quite easy to guess my hand, huh?

Thanks for your words too!

This scenario was a bit special since from the 4th street the same player kept raising and hitting a very visible high combination, while each 3 of you getting closer to your combinations yet never were able to acting anything apart from the call. I would say as you were a canditate to hit your 7 or 8 high low combination on the 7th street, other's probably did not count you that way, more likely the flush. So you could max value for the half pot if you get there by a suprise and that's all.

In other cases, I mean normal stack seizes - I definitely like if they not see our weakness. A visible line like 7396( with 2♠️s and 2♣️s) is more competative that the Q396. Of course your flush could be predictable, but some of the players who collected the lows may fold their combos f.e. by that way. With normal stacks.

What I did not mention, but you is that it was lucky that this person get there with 3 pairs. Even tho when he hit 99QQ and after that even 22, its strong but so easily beatable especially in such a multiway. You kept blocking each other and that was his lucky charm. Otherwise I would not put the bringin in his shoes at all.