Check-Raise doesn't convince

[KMC1828]

full tilt poker Game #3263856798: $26 Token Frenzy (24416498), Table 9 - 60/120 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:20:36 ET - 2007/08/15
Seat 1: harjag (2,865)
Seat 3: ttdad (1,535)
Seat 4: Break17 (2,725)
Seat 5: caradhas (2,260)
Seat 6: Dano6 (6,085)
Seat 7: El Prez (5,755)
Seat 8: Nicoos (2,909)
Seat 9: gamblequail (1,220)
ttdad posts the small blind of 60
Break17 posts the big blind of 120
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Break17 [9s 9h]
caradhas folds
Dano6 raises to 360
El Prez folds
Nicoos folds
gamblequail folds
harjag folds
ttdad folds
Break17 calls 240
*** FLOP *** [Tc Td 8c]
Break17 checks
Dano6 bets 480
Break17 raises to 1,200
Dano6 has 15 seconds left to act
Dano6 calls 720


What do you think of this play. i had put him on QJs-AKs preflop with only a 3x bb raise. i didnt think he had a PP unless it was less than 10s. ill post the rest of it in a bit.

 

[OzExorcist]

Was there something specific that made you think the villain didn't have a hand like JJ or AT? Some people will make a standard 3BB raise with better hands than that.

For whatever reason, if you really didn't credit him with a ten or an overpair then I think the check-raise was worth a stab. But now that you've been called, a 9 is probably the only card you'll be happy to see next, and the villain knows he had you outstacked 3:1 going into the hand, so you're probably not going to be able to bluff him off the hand if that card doesn't come. Time to cut your losses?

 

[-PotCommited88-]

im guessing he had an overpair and since that flop looks somewhat open he might have tried to trap your supposed 8 or small pocket pair with a raise on a hand like JJ or better. interested to see the results

 

[KMC1828]

the guy had gotten his stack so big because he had been playing kind of loose and playing marginal hands and catching with them, and just taking down pots with it like that.

 

[-PotCommited88-]

then its quite possible to say he could have a 10/6 or something of that nature. im not saying that you should always assume he has you beat, but i think he has you in this one

 

[OzExorcist]

the guy had gotten his stack so big because he had been playing kind of loose and playing marginal hands and catching with them, and just taking down pots with it like that.

Fair enough - like I said, to my mind the check-raise was worth a stab, all the more so if he's been playing loose and bluffing a bit. Once he's called your raise though, it seems like you're in trouble

 

[KMC1828]

*** TURN *** [Tc Td 8c] [Ks]
Break17 bets 1,165, and is all in
Dano6 calls 1,165
Break17 shows [9s 9h]
Dano6 shows [Qc Kc]
*** RIVER *** [Tc Td 8c Ks] [3d]
Break17 shows two pair, Tens and Nines
Dano6 shows two pair, Kings and Tens
Dano6 wins the pot (5,510) with two pair, Kings and Tens
Break17 stands up
The blinds are now 80/160
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5,510 | Rake 0
Board: [Tc Td 8c Ks 3d]
Seat 1: harjag (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: ttdad (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: Break17 (big blind) showed [9s 9h] and lost with two pair, Tens and Nines
Seat 6: Dano6 showed [Qc Kc] and won (5,510) with two pair, Kings and Tens
Seat 7: El Prez didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: Nicoos didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: gamblequail didn't bet (folded)


kinda went nuts after the turn card. eh...
big flaw in my game i need to work on. after i make a good play and then they call and catch and i know they did, i go into denial.

 

[OzExorcist]

Ouch. Yep, you've definitely got a leak in your game there...

 

[KMC1828]

Ouch. Yep, you've definitely got a leak in your game there...

for real. lol.

im reading zen and the art of poker (thanks vanquish for the recommendation) and hopefully that leak will be gone from my game after i finish that book.

 

[joosebuck]

i disagree. his hesitation leads me personally to lead almost any turn as played. most kings arent raising in this spot preflop (outside of kk/ak. or in this case, a bad player with QK)

 

[bw07507]

This is actually a perfectly fine call by villain, he has 2 overs and the club draw. He is getting well over 3:1 to call.

 

[joeeagles]

The only thing I can say is that if you are going to check/raise it to 1200 then you should just shove, cause you're leaving yourself with a shortstack and pot committed anyway. Of course one can argue that being you're ahead you want him to call, but you're in awkward situation on the turn, cause whatever card shows up you put so much into this pot you almost can't get away from it anymore. Flat calling his c-bet on that board doesn't sound great either with all the draws there + a pair, but its better than raising to 1200 cause it leaves you with enough to get away from the hand if you sense danger.

As played you got a bad break getting outdrawn on the turn, but your raise to 1200 is a mistake however you look at it for what it does to your stack. You had him on the right range but sometimes you still don't get rewarded for it.

The leak you say you have is mainly due to the size of the pot at that point, it really makes it hard to get away from it considering also you were left with only 1165.

 

[KMC1828]

i could have gotten away from that hand and played short stacked and tried to take it from there, but..yeah. that leak in my game took over.

i thought about reraising preflop too, but i didn't want to have to throw out a c-bet with an underpair if high cards came out.

 

[KMC1828]

Full Tilt Poker Game #3277021223: $1 Rebuy (24508289), Table 18 - 800/1600 Ante 200 - No Limit Hold'em - 1:54:11 ET - 2007/08/17
Seat 1: olive80916 (30,788)
Seat 2: pay_up_son (45,600)
Seat 3: MrBillontilt (32,177)
Seat 4: i pack lips (44,806)
Seat 5: izaill (27,516)
Seat 6: Break17 (25,486)
Seat 8: Pack It Up (18,050)
Seat 9: ordinaryben (11,005)
olive80916 antes 200
pay_up_son antes 200
MrBillontilt antes 200
i pack lips antes 200
izaill antes 200
Break17 antes 200
Pack It Up antes 200
ordinaryben antes 200
izaill posts the small blind of 800
Break17 posts the big blind of 1,600
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Break17 [Kc Qc]
Pack It Up folds
ordinaryben folds
olive80916 folds
pay_up_son folds
MrBillontilt folds
i pack lips raises to 4,800
izaill folds
Break17 calls 3,200
*** FLOP *** [6d 7d 2h]
Break17 checks
i pack lips bets 4,800
Break17 has 15 seconds left to act
Break17 raises to 20,486, and is all in
i pack lips calls 15,686
Break17 shows [Kc Qc]
i pack lips shows [8h 7s]
*** TURN *** [6d 7d 2h] [Jh]
*** RIVER *** [6d 7d 2h Jh] [Ah]
Break17 shows Ace King high
i pack lips shows a pair of Sevens
i pack lips wins the pot (52,972) with a pair of Sevens
Break17 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 52,972 | Rake 0
Board: [6d 7d 2h Jh Ah]
Seat 1: olive80916 folded before the Flop
Seat 2: pay_up_son folded before the Flop
Seat 3: MrBillontilt folded before the Flop
Seat 4: i pack lips (button) showed [8h 7s] and won (52,972) with a pair of Sevens
Seat 5: izaill (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: Break17 (big blind) showed [Kc Qc] and lost with Ace King high
Seat 8: Pack It Up folded before the Flop
Seat 9: ordinaryben folded before the Flop


apparently check-raises dont mean anything anymore. i should have reraised preflop, just wasn't thinking clearly i guess.