AK UTG+1 vs pro

vanquish

vanquish

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table image is something weak/tight because I'm wayyy off my game recently, I'm a donkish 28/19 over like 30 hands
I've limped UTG against villain and had to fold a big hand to his 4-bet all-in preflop early on

lost one SD, not much else shown, been a little shovy to catch up in chips


pokerstars Game #12475512662: Tournament #58458655, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2007/10/06 - 17:41:04 (ET)
Table '58458655 2' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: L.Schumner (1225 in chips)
Seat 2: vanquish331 (1180 in chips)
Seat 3: pN.Boogie (1975 in chips)
Seat 4: goforlowonly (2162 in chips)
Seat 6: beardyian (815 in chips)
Seat 8: rob5775 (1178 in chips)
Seat 9: Pigpen02 (1965 in chips)
rob5775: posts small blind 25
Pigpen02: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to vanquish331 [As Kd]
vanquish331 said, "just once"
L.Schumner: calls 50
vanquish331: raises 100 to 150
pN.Boogie: folds
goforlowonly: folds
beardyian: folds
rob5775: folds
Pigpen02: folds
L.Schumner: calls 100
*** FLOP *** [5h Qh Ac]
L.Schumner: checks
L.Schumner said, "lets play a flop"
vanquish331: bets 225
L.Schumner: calls 225
*** TURN *** [5h Qh Ac] [7h]
L.Schumner: bets 850 and is all-in
vanquish331 said, "i need to know how to play this"
 
TheJace

TheJace

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ABC theoretical poker says fold here. TOP says you need a stronger hand to call a strong all-in on this suited board. You said you've been running bad so I'd just stick to basics for a while and fold, wait for a better spot.
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

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lol, fold you donkey. It's almost never correct to call off all your money w a marginal hand like tptk. What are you really beating? This looks EXACTLY like a flush, and you have no redraw.
:D
 
T

thasauce7

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Well I think we can dispell AQ off the bat due to no reraise off the flop with a board i think AQ should raise. The push on the turn tells me that he doesn't have a flush, maybe 2 pair???? in a turbo tournament, this is an easy call, but I don't think it would be donking off your chips to call here, i just don't see anything besides 2 pair having you beat.
 
TubaMark316

TubaMark316

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This same thing happened to me earlier today when I was playing .02/.05 on PS...

I'm still in my Donkey mode...but I ended folding my A-K when and A-10-7 flop came and some dude put me all in on the first bet...

It is SOOOO irritating...
 
clamman1

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well man on the flop you had the goods and even preflop but u played it weak. you either should have reraised preflop all in and take down the pot at hand or rasied another 2 or 3 hundred at least then on the flop u had top pair top kicker and u bet a small enuf amount to suck him in ... or so you though you should have played super agressive here and push becasue of the 2 hearts in play. he probalbly called ur bet rite away right? ppl who usally call the bets right away are uslaly playing with some sort of draw u shoudl have defineatly pushed on the flop . no question about it .. if he called well horrible call by him and he would have gotten lucky but he would have most likely folded which is what you wanted! u gave him control of the hand once u just called on the flop and that was mistake number 1 mistake number 2 was nt going all in on the flop
 
Irexes

Irexes

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I've seen our man represent a flush there before when he didn't have one because I figured he would check a flush to me rather than bet. However
AG is playing you as much as the cards so it's all about thinking about what he thinks you think he has (not what I would think he had in the same position).

This time I'm more inclinded to believe it's a flush though Ax is a real possibility as he's going to be pretty certain you don't have the flush and were worried about the flop.

If you call you're ahead a fair bit here and behind the rest :)


No help at all there... at a push I'll say he has AhJc.
 
vanquish

vanquish

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I call, he has KT, I win despite making an allegedly awful call.
W/e such is life.
 
Irexes

Irexes

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When I was in the same boat against AG, the fact that it looked exactly like a flush was what convinced me it wasn't (or at least convinced me enough to decide that a call was probably the right move).

Good call Van, given the pot I don't think you can let that go there otherwise you'll start jumping at shadows.

AG is of course an extremely tricky player though and will be taking this entire thread into account the next time a similar situation occurs :)
 
skoldpadda

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Why push instead of CRAI with the fllush? I like the call.
 
Irexes

Irexes

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Sorry misremembered this hand completely. AGs actions looked to be telling me he had a flush (bear in mind I tend to be pretty much anything there if the turn is checked and he knows I'm a tad loose with blinds this low).

I felt that he was more likely to try to disguise the flush with a bet on the turn (not a push) than a check-raise. The check-raise telegraphs flush, and I give AG huge credit for not being someone who telegraphs his plays). Of course it could be double-reverse psychology but I was pretty certain the flush wasn't out there and that he was tackling my willingness to bet with air, which more often than not would see me fold to the check-raise.

full tilt poker Game #3638672611: Cardschat.com Loyaler FR (25992807), Table 3 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 13:24:59 ET - 2007/09/22
Seat 2: Robwhufc (1,730)
Seat 3: kozlo6pack (3,425)
Seat 4: Irexes (1,400)
Seat 5: aliengenius (1,620)
Seat 6: stormswa (1,350), is sitting out
Seat 7: Aloevera (1,245)
Seat 8: beardyian (1,230)
aliengenius posts the small blind of 25
stormswa posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Irexes [4c 3c]
Aloevera folds
beardyian folds
Robwhufc has 15 seconds left to act
Robwhufc is sitting out
Robwhufc has timed out
Robwhufc folds
kozlo6pack folds
Irexes calls 50
aliengenius calls 25
stormswa checks
*** FLOP *** [2h 5h Ad]
aliengenius bets 110
stormswa folds
Irexes calls 110
*** TURN *** [2h 5h Ad] [7h]
aliengenius checks
Irexes bets 150
aliengenius raises to 420
 
brettstix

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Please note: If my thoughts are incorrect here please help me to understand why clamman1 was correct.

well man on the flop you had the goods and even preflop but u played it weak. you either should have reraised preflop all in and take down the pot at hand or rasied another 2 or 3 hundred at least then on the flop u had top pair top kicker and u bet a small enuf amount to suck him in ... or so you though you should have played super agressive here and push becasue of the 2 hearts in play. he probalbly called ur bet rite away right? ppl who usally call the bets right away are uslaly playing with some sort of draw u shoudl have defineatly pushed on the flop . no question about it .. if he called well horrible call by him and he would have gotten lucky but he would have most likely folded which is what you wanted! u gave him control of the hand once u just called on the flop and that was mistake number 1 mistake number 2 was nt going all in on the flop
Mainly concerned with this comment
mistake number 2 was nt going all in on the flop

If I read this correctly rob5775 posts small blind for 25, Pigpen02 posts big blind for 50, L.Schumner calls for 50 so vanquish is sitting UTG+2 with AK off looking at an pot of 125.

clamman1's suggestion of all in pre flop does not seem like a good idea to me. There are still 5 players yet to act in this hand. 1180 = 10 x pot = 44 x BB. A bet like this does not represent AA or KK or QQ. You want to try to get some value from those hands without scaring everybody off.

If the all in bet were successful and vanquish takes down the pot, while 125 win is better than a loss I think the risk of having all of your chips in on that hand early in the game is not worth it.

I would look to raise to 250-300. Should Schumner still call with the 2 hearts on the board and having made TPTK I would look to end the hand there. If everyone folds you win the pot without risking all of your chips.

Should he call and that flop hits I couldn't put him on AQ with a limp-call. Possibly a low pair (would they lead into you with a set). I would feel I was holding the winning hand at that time but wary of a flush draw.

That is my read on how I would have played it.

Any comments greatly appreciated.

:smile:
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

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I've seen our man represent a flush there before when he didn't have one because I figured he would check a flush to me rather than bet. However
AG is playing you as much as the cards so it's all about thinking about what he thinks you think he has (not what I would think he had in the same position).

This time I'm more inclinded to believe it's a flush though Ax is a real possibility as he's going to be pretty certain you don't have the flush and were worried about the flop.

If you call you're ahead a fair bit here and behind the rest :)


No help at all there... at a push I'll say he has AhJc.

I call, he has KT, I win despite making an allegedly awful call.
W/e such is life.

Good call V.

When I was in the same boat against AG, the fact that it looked exactly like a flush was what convinced me it wasn't (or at least convinced me enough to decide that a call was probably the right move).

Good call Van, given the pot I don't think you can let that go there otherwise you'll start jumping at shadows.

AG is of course an extremely tricky player though and will be taking this entire thread into account the next time a similar situation occurs :)

Why push instead of CRAI with the fllush? I like the call.

Sorry misremembered this hand completely. AGs actions looked to be telling me he had a flush (bear in mind I tend to be pretty much anything there if the turn is checked and he knows I'm a tad loose with blinds this low).

I felt that he was more likely to try to disguise the flush with a bet on the turn (not a push) than a check-raise. The check-raise telegraphs flush, and I give AG huge credit for not being someone who telegraphs his plays). Of course it could be double-reverse psychology but I was pretty certain the flush wasn't out there and that he was tackling my willingness to bet with air, which more often than not would see me fold to the check-raise.

Full Tilt Poker Game #3638672611: Cardschat.com Loyaler FR (25992807), Table 3 - 25/50 - No Limit Hold'em - 13:24:59 ET - 2007/09/22
Seat 2: Robwhufc (1,730)
Seat 3: kozlo6pack (3,425)
Seat 4: Irexes (1,400)
Seat 5: aliengenius (1,620)
Seat 6: stormswa (1,350), is sitting out
Seat 7: Aloevera (1,245)
Seat 8: beardyian (1,230)
aliengenius posts the small blind of 25
stormswa posts the big blind of 50
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Irexes [4c 3c]
Aloevera folds
beardyian folds
Robwhufc has 15 seconds left to act
Robwhufc is sitting out
Robwhufc has timed out
Robwhufc folds
kozlo6pack folds
Irexes calls 50
aliengenius calls 25
stormswa checks
*** FLOP *** [2h 5h Ad]
aliengenius bets 110
stormswa folds
Irexes calls 110
*** TURN *** [2h 5h Ad] 7♥
aliengenius checks
Irexes bets 150
aliengenius raises to 420

I'm really surprised that everyone thinks a flush would check raise. Guess what, you can only check raise if your opponent bets! Do you really think tptk bets the turn when the scare card comes, or is it more likely he checks to control the pot size, looking to get to showdown as cheaply as possible?
Interesting that Rex thought the check raise was NOT the flush, and several others thought the lead bet was NOT the flush. Looks like the lead bet is more suspect to more players?

Nice to see I'm mixing up the way I play my failed bluffs though :p.
 
Irexes

Irexes

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Interesting that Rex thought the check raise was NOT the flush, and several others thought the lead bet was NOT the flush. Looks like the lead bet is more suspect to more players?

I thought a check-raise from you against me in the context of that hand indicated you probably didn't have the flush.

As general rule of thumb I find strong players are more likely to bet strength and weak players check (and look to check-raise) with strength. I felt that if you had a flush there you would normally have bet it in order to maximise the chance of taking a big pot and to avoid giving me a redraw to a possible flush of my own for free.

Against a weaker player I would read it as much more likely to signal a flush. "OMG I HAVE THE NUTS!!! CHECKRAISE LIKE A PRO!!!" etc


I usually bet flushes relatively hard (and flush draws for that matter) I think weaker players find it hard to believe that someone would risk the other guy folding when they have a good hand :) Instead they should be happy to pick up a pot when they other person folds and in the cases when they call or reraise to pick up an even bigger one, I think there is a huge tendancy to get tricky which leads to smaller flushes and redraws. So based on my previous observations of you AG I read your play as too weak to be real.
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

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I thought a check-raise from you against me in the context of that hand indicated you probably didn't have the flush.

As general rule of thumb I find strong players are more likely to bet strength and weak players check (and look to check-raise) with strength. I felt that if you had a flush there you would normally have bet it in order to maximise the chance of taking a big pot and to avoid giving me a redraw to a possible flush of my own for free.

Against a weaker player I would read it as much more likely to signal a flush. "OMG I HAVE THE NUTS!!! CHECKRAISE LIKE A PRO!!!" etc


I usually bet flushes relatively hard (and flush draws for that matter) I think weaker players find it hard to believe that someone would risk the other guy folding when they have a good hand :) Instead they should be happy to pick up a pot when they other person folds and in the cases when they call or reraise to pick up an even bigger one, I think there is a huge tendancy to get tricky which leads to smaller flushes and redraws. So based on my previous observations of you AG I read your play as too weak to be real.

Good read :(.
 
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