AA in BB vs HUGE EP raise

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ph_il

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$5.5 Turbo SNG on Absolute. Its still early in the game, so no real reads on the player. Have seen him limp in with quite a few hands, but this raise is way out there.

Stage #1164474759 Tourney ID 1947033 Holdem Single Tournament No Limit $30 - 2008-04-29 04:50:00 (ET)
Table: 21359225 (real money) Seat #9 is the dealer
Seat 1 - DJCLEAR ($1470 in chips)
Seat 2 - TRM_SHRIMP ($1490 in chips)
Seat 3 - MRDONSUGAR ($4615 in chips)
Seat 6 - POTMAN100 ($2305 in chips)
Seat 7 - SHKABO ($365 in chips)
Seat 8 - SALLYWOULD ($1345 in chips)
Seat 9 - VIRALRUSHED ($1910 in chips)
DJCLEAR - Posts small blind $15
TRM_SHRIMP - Posts big blind $30
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to TRM_SHRIMP [As Ad]
MRDONSUGAR - Folds
POTMAN100 - Raises $315 to $315
SHKABO - Folds
SALLYWOULD - Folds
VIRALRUSHED - Folds
DJCLEAR - Folds
TRM_SHRIMP - ???

Im not quite sure what do do in this situation, TBH. I think its safe to assume my opponent has a hand he wants to play. Whats the best way to approach this to get all his money in the pot? If my opponent is holding a hand like JJ, QQ, AK, AQ, maybe 1010 or KQ, he might call/shove to my re-raise. But if he is holding a hand like say 66 or 77, raising might give him a chance to fold and still have 2K to work with @ low blinds. Would just calling and letting him trap himself be the better option? He did commit 10.5x the BB PF, if the flop is rags I can assume there is going to be a huge c-bet. My only concern is if my opponent is holding something like JJ and the flop shows an over, that might kill my action. I can only hope my opponent is holding AK or AQ and the board comes A, K, or Q.

So, raise it up or trap?

 
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K

Kennyseven

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If your image is loose I would probably shove here. If your table image is tight I would call then depending on the board, check raise.
 
lagerking2u

lagerking2u

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here is how i would play(although i am not a good player)

i would push all in after his raise as with my luck he would have a mid PP like 6's or 7's and would hit in the flop if i just called..then it is up to him to decide wether or not to call, if he folds i have still won some chips but if he calls and shows AK or something like this i have a good chance of winning......but like i said i am not a good player and i am probably wrong, but this is just my take on this hand.
 
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Jillychemung

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With that large of bet I'd narrow his range way down to 99-JJ, AQ, AK. Since it is so early I'd probably try to trap here with a flat call. I think this is a spot where a min-raise would also be effective. Also think about what kind of image you want to have during the rest of the SNG and play to that style here.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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I might push but I like the min raise here as well. If he just calls we act first and push any flop.
 
The Shrog

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Could be way off...but is there anything wrong with the minraise here? Because he made such a large PF raise, making it another 315 back to him will hopefully a.) Get him to shove, or b.) Get him committed on the flop after calling the min-raise. I think I like this play here...
 
dj11

dj11

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Phil, I think your assumption may be flawed. A 10x bet suggests to me a hand he does NOT want to play. Very likely a complete bluff, but possibly sooted or connected cards or a raggy ACE. After that your thinking clears up.

I would go into the tank here EXPECTING to somehow end up with all my chips in the middle, along with matching chips from villain. Then I would smooth call.

Tank can't be very deep tho, this is a turbo, with probably reduced tank time.

Pray he fires at you on the flop. Ignore all board cards, the results will be the same as if you shove pf and he calls. What this line will do is ensure he matches your chips, and doesn't punk out to a preflop reraise. You want his chips. You can pretty much figure he will c-bet the flop, and as expected you want to give him enough rope to probably hang himself.

You may lose this hand, but most of the time you will win this and double up.

A preflop reraise or shove gives villain a chance to back down, and this is something we do not want.

The alternative of shoving pf will most likely shut him down, and only take his 315 +dead money chips.

IMO:D
 
F

feitr

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I wouldn't think so dj11. Why would you raise 10x bb to pick up 45$ in blinds? Makes absolutely no sense to open raise 10x bb here without a good hand (although it makes no sense to open raise 10x bb with anything).

Personally i like the min raise then shove after flop line. He has enough chips to probably call the min raise if he has decent hand. Hopefully he is an idiot and doesn't realise that if he wants to play this hand he is actually committing 1490 more, and not simply 315.
 
T

Toad

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I've seen alot of people bet this way with TT, JJ, and sometimes even QQ.

I like the min raise. I think he would call for sure and he might even raise back into you. He has a pretty good sized stack so an extra $300 is not going to scare him off just yet, imo.

If you try to trap and an overcard comes it will be easier for him to lay
down his hand...especially if he only has his initial raise in the middle.
 
Joe Slick

Joe Slick

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I like the min raise. I think he would call for sure and he might even raise back into you. He has a pretty good sized stack so an extra $300 is not going to scare him off just yet, imo.

Me too.

In a situation like this I occasionally will do a min raise plus a little, say $350 or $375. If he's going to call $300, the additional $50 or $75 probably won't discourage him from calling. Unless I get a monster or scary flop, my next move is allin. This will probably be the last money I get from him.
 
ChuckTs

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There's really no wrong way to play this hand, every line will yield +EV unless you slowplay it to the river on a draw-heavy board or something.

Calling and trapping on the flop is fine as he'll often be committed.
Shoving is fine as he's basically committed.
Minraising is fine.
 
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viking999

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Phil, I think your assumption may be flawed. A 10x bet suggests to me a hand he does NOT want to play. Very likely a complete bluff, but possibly sooted or connected cards or a raggy ACE. After that your thinking clears up.

I agree that he doesn't want to play, but I disagree about it being a bluff. Lots of players have paranoid behaviors regarding QQ, JJ, TT, and AK. They don't want to play a flop, but they'll play it for all their chips preflop. Hence the big raise.

It could be a bluff, but if it is one, then you probably have some read already on this guy being LAG, because that is a crazy kind of bluff.

Without a read of this guy being a bit loony, I'd probably ship it in. Or at least some sort of raise.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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*agrees with Chuck*

It's impossible to pick the "perfect" play in this spot: if you shove, maybe you would've got more by flat calling. If you flat call and he misses the flop, maybe you would've got more by shoving. It just depends so much on the player and the exact cards they're holding.

I probably favour raising pre-flop as the default option, as much because I'd like my opponents to think that my re-raises always mean a monster as anything else, but there's a good case for everything (except folding, obv) pre-flop.
 
Melkor

Melkor

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Whilst I don't necessarily think there is a 'bad' play, I think that the shove is losing chips that the player is commited to putting in if checked to on the flop whether he has anything or not. His stack is big enough to easily lay this down to a shove, I mean he would need to put in another 1100. Fold and he has 2000. He is not commited. The 10x BB raise is bizzare but that seems to say he doesnt want to play the hand. I think a shove gives him a way out.

A min-raise would be an interesting play, he has done the hard work by putting a raise and a re-raise amount in the pot so it is a very nice position with the bullets. A min-raise may trigger the player to shove, I can't see him folding to it unless it was total garbage. However, it could slow him down if he calls and then misses the flop.

If we called and checked I feel the player would be panicky on the flop and would have to bet. It is an effective way of getting an extra bet that I feel would certainly have to come.

In the heat of the moment I would probably min-raise to around 600 actually, but a call is very attractive with the pot already at a very nice size. A shove would be my least favourite of the three though. Still, I wish I got raised 10.5x my BB with AA!:(
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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I think that the shove is losing chips that the player is commited to putting in if checked to on the flop whether he has anything or not.

Maybe, maybe not. It all depends on their cards. If they've got TT and we shove pre-flop, villain might call us. But if they've got TT, we flat call and then see a KQ4 flop, they're probably not getting any more money in against us.

With the benefit of hindsight, the shove will sometimes be the right move here - it all just depends on the cards that villain is holding. Some hands will give you more action before the flop, some will give you more after.
 
widowmaker89

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I think you should bump it up here, a little more than min raise. I think his most likely holding is something in the 77-QQ range with AK in the mix. I think he calls a big raise and then is pretty committed to the flop and thats assuming no reraise. He probably has a hand that he wants to play but does not want to see a high flop. Since you are out of position it also makes it more difficult to extract chips after the flop, if you flat call and push I dont see him calling unless he has overpair or has you beat.

If you flat call and check raise, he may not allow it if high cards pop up. If you were in position I would give calling more weight(although still raise more) because if he checks the flop you could throw out what might be a bet to just steal the pot and get his chips in that way. OOP I like the raise and expect to get my money in PF.

I think his range is more likely to push now that to push after a missed flop(high cards included).

I agree any move has its merits, but I do disagree with Chuck that there is no way to misplay the hand since they are all EV+. a loss of EV, even if the move is EV+, is really no different than a larger loss. calling a bet with the nuts on the river HU is EV+ but is clearly the wrong move since raising will be even higher. I know you a good player and I am probably just misunderstanding your statement.
 
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p0K35

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I could be reading this HH all wrong, but looks to me like POTMAN100 is going after SHKABO, who folds. Why, is pot going after shk, I have no clue?

But, is does look like you last to act as the BB, and holding the best preflop cards, against a stoopid preflop move, that didn't get shk to bite, you have:

4
8
32
64

Ways to play this hand. As you state this is early, build a tbl image, 2 ways:

I defend my BB
I reraise with quality hands.

2fer, reraise, 3Xbet, when they fold, show.
If they come over the top, allin, you have the best hand preflop.
If they call, insta allin for your last 210 chips, and ppA do get cracked.

Or, just call, and trap??? I wonder why you ask this question? This is not that hard of what to do here post. They have k9s to ak, they may have ppA, but looks like move to induce SHKABO, allin.

I'd raise, and they fold... I'd call, and board shows:
[396]
I bet, they raise me allin, and show pp9...
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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I agree any move has its merits, but I do disagree with Chuck that there is no way to misplay the hand since they are all EV+. a loss of EV, even if the move is EV+, is really no different than a larger loss. calling a bet with the nuts on the river HU is EV+ but is clearly the wrong move since raising will be even higher. I know you a good player and I am probably just misunderstanding your statement.

No, you're right. I didn't word it properly, but I meant that they're all relatively high +EV and you're not making a big mistake by choosing one over the other.

Like by smooth calling and CRAI on any flop you might be making 50 fewer chips on average than if you shove, but both plays will yield hundreds or thousands in +cEV, so your mistake is still yielding a very high EV, and the difference is very small. I think relatively readless there isn't much use in stressing over the hand too much as you're going to be winning close to his whole stack almost all of the time.
 
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