88 - Make an arguement

[mischman]

This can go anyway. The person that makes the best arguement will have something nice wrote about them in my signature.

Robs is 42/16/1
TUFF is 28/20/0


Call? Raise? Fold?



pokerstars Game #10523198120: Tournament #53166832, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2007/06/19 - 23:19:38 (ET)
Table '53166832 1' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: ~PHØeNiX~ (5765 in chips)
Seat 2: joneb99 (2407 in chips)
Seat 3: mischman (6648 in chips)
Seat 4: TexasBlondie (1655 in chips)
Seat 5: risky buss (2406 in chips)
Seat 7: Robs_2k6 (3080 in chips)
Seat 8: TUFF234 (5039 in chips)
mischman: posts small blind 75
TexasBlondie: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mischman [8s 8c]
risky buss: folds
Robs_2k6: calls 150
TUFF234: raises 350 to 500
~PHØeNiX~: folds
joneb99: folds
mischman:

 

[stormswa]

This can go anyway. The person that makes the best arguement will have something nice wrote about them in my signature.

Robs is 42/16/1
TUFF is 28/20/0


Call? Raise? Fold?



PokerStars Game #10523198120: Tournament #53166832, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2007/06/19 - 23:19:38 (ET)
Table '53166832 1' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: ~PHØeNiX~ (5765 in chips)
Seat 2: joneb99 (2407 in chips)
Seat 3: mischman (6648 in chips)
Seat 4: TexasBlondie (1655 in chips)
Seat 5: risky buss (2406 in chips)
Seat 7: Robs_2k6 (3080 in chips)
Seat 8: TUFF234 (5039 in chips)
mischman: posts small blind 75
TexasBlondie: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to mischman [8s 8c]
risky buss: folds
Robs_2k6: calls 150
TUFF234: raises 350 to 500
~PHØeNiX~: folds
joneb99: folds
mischman:

Im scared to be in your signature anymore,


this for me is simple call, we are both deep stacked and if I hit a good flop we have a great chance of stacking him. I dont want to raise because if we raise there is a chance someone behind us wakes up with a monster hand. PLUS I dont want to commit myself against a shortstack, in different position this might be played differently but in this one I think a call is in order.

 

[jayneseo]

I'd fold, you have a nice chip stack, it's still early, you're out of position and you can't call a reraise by Robs. Fold and let them fight it out.

 

[Stick66]

TUFF's numbers seem TAG to me. I might believe his raises and he knows you, the chip leader, are behind him. Plus, you don't know if Rob will re-raise, as loose as he is.

Think of the flop: You'll be UTG, which will make it harder to out play them. You'll have 3 of you to the flop. The last player is the one who showed strength, so he'll probably control the pot and C-bet no matter what. The only cards you can rely on to improve your hand are the 2 remaining 8's. If you don't flop them, you'll either have to chase something or dump 'em.

Also, a 900 chip lead is not all that commanding.

I'd call with 88 on the button heads up. But not 88 in the SB 3-handed and it's tough to bully-reraise in this spot.

FOLD and keep your lead. You can bully-steal later.

 

[aliengenius]

Ok, here we go:
Robs open limps. He plays almost every other hand, but raises at a slightly less normal rate than tag or lag; this gives him a huge range of hands, but means that he does NOT have anything premium. No big ace, no big pair.

Tuff (the second chip stack) raises to 500; this is perfect, (in my opinion): almost a "mini" raise with one limper ahead, but still keeping the pot as small as possible, while isolating the donkey. Tuff almost always raises if he plays (28:20), so this just means he is playing, not that he has a huge hand here.

Folded to hero, the big stack, but in the small blind.

To me this is a simple set mine, disregarding a crazy flop like 225 where we think we are ahead. Raising villain has enough in his stack to justify a call, check-fold without us hitting (unless we have some other read here that we have not been told about).

500 means very little to us, and the limper's stats suggest no re-raise, thus we can be very confident of closing the action.

Our simple call invites the original limper to call as well, increasing out chance of getting paid off with a set.

So:

call, check-fold any "bad" flop, with the possibility of taking a 'bluff' stab with only one overcard if we end up hu.

Why a reraise is bad:

Potential to win the pot outright is much out weighed by possibility that we will either:
a, have to fold to a re, re raise, or b, get called then have to act first every subsequent betting round.

 

[joeeagles]

Ok, here we go:
Robs open limps. He plays almost every other hand, but raises at a slightly less normal rate than tag or lag; this gives him a huge range of hands, but means that he does NOT have anything premium. No big ace, no big pair.

Tuff (the second chip stack) raises to 500; this is perfect, (in my opinion): almost a "mini" raise with one limper ahead, but still keeping the pot as small as possible, while isolating the donkey. Tuff almost always raises if he plays (28:20), so this just means he is playing, not that he has a huge hand here.

Folded to hero, the big stack, but in the small blind.

To me this is a simple set mine, disregarding a crazy flop like 225 where we think we are ahead. Raising villain has enough in his stack to justify a call, check-fold without us hitting (unless we have some other read here that we have not been told about).

500 means very little to us, and the limper's stats suggest no re-raise, thus we can be very confident of closing the action.

Our simple call invites the original limper to call as well, increasing out chance of getting paid off with a set.

So:

call, check-fold any "bad" flop, with the possibility of taking a 'bluff' stab with only one overcard if we end up hu.

Why a reraise is bad:

Potential to win the pot outright is much out weighed by possibility that we will either:
a, have to fold to a re, re raise, or b, get called then have to act first every subsequent betting round.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think you found your winner.


Unfortunately I don't know the meaning of:

Robs is 42/16/1
TUFF is 28/20/0

However, it hardly would change the reasoning above. I think we all agree you shouldn't fold this with 425 to call (875 in the pot) and a good chance this goes 3-way, considering the size of your stack. So, it comes down to smooth calling or reraising. I don't like the reraise for reasons explained above. This is one of those hands that, if played improperly (reraising), can ruin your tourney. A reraise carries too many risks and puts you in jeopardy of loosing too much.

Although calling raises shouldn't really be done often at this stage, I think this hand is a good exception to that rule, even if you're OOP. You're likely to be getting 3 to 1 (with Robs calling) with 88, and a chance to either win a big one or lose 425. Flop play would depend on this being 3-handed or HU, again, as explained above.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Think of the flop: You'll be UTG, which will make it harder to out play them.

The thing is we're not necessarily looking to outplay them, more to outflop them in this situation. When you're playing almost exclusively for set value, postflop position, while still important, is not as crucial a factor as it usually is - if you hit your set you're either going to slowplay or lead depending on flop texture etc, and if you miss you're going to check-fold the vast majority of the time. This doesn't really change whether we're UTG or on the button, and as long as you're playing relatively weak opponents it doesn't matter greatly.

 

[Shandy]

I think i reraise here, to about 1600, calling gives the short stacked bb the chance to push over the top, which will then give tuff an opportunity to reraise, meaning that you have just lost 500. I think if you raise, the big blind will need a very decent hand to call as there has been a limp, raise and reraise, and will more than likely fold, robs will see the same action and more than likely fold, although even if he pushes i think we can call it (only if tuff folds). This will then give tuff a chance to advertise his hand, if he calls - well your praying for an 8, but i think usually he will fold or reraise, in which case you let the hand go.

 

[joosebuck]

definitely dont like a reraise here oop. i probably toss this not being closing action. plus getting value from hands oop is a lot harder than with position.

 

[Stick66]

Think of the flop: You'll be UTG, which will make it harder to out play them.

The thing is we're not necessarily looking to outplay them, more to outflop them in this situation. When you're playing almost exclusively for set value, postflop position, while still important, is not as crucial a factor as it usually is - if you hit your set you're either going to slowplay or lead depending on flop texture etc, and if you miss you're going to check-fold the vast majority of the time. This doesn't really change whether we're UTG or on the button, and as long as you're playing relatively weak opponents it doesn't matter greatly.

My point was that trying to outplay them was a option, but not a good one. Playing 88 for a raise OOP is not as good as playing it for a limp OOP. Also, playing it on the button for a raise would be better than UTG on the flop.

Too many "cons" and not enough "pros" to call here. IMO, playing it for a raise just to try to "outflop them" and accepting a fold as your only option if you miss the flop is a waste of chips in a STT/MTT situation like this. I think it would be fine as a cash game move, but not here. I'd want to extend my lead and use my power by using my position and extra chips at better times that will surely arise.

 

[dj11]

Things we know;

Our chip stack is good. Level 5 blinds are getting bigger, but we're ok.

We beat about half the pp's but are a dog to most playable hands. Reality suggests we really only have 2 outs, the 8's. Runner runner runner runner for a straight is uncountable to me, as would the board flopping trips.

We are OOP. We can only hope to flop an 8. If we check on the flop, TUff will throw in a continuation bet.

rob only limped in, and being loose, his range is large.

We are only invested 75 bucks here. Do we want to gamble another 425 (approx 7% of our stack) under these conditions?

Thinks we can't be sure of;

Tuff being the TAG, It could be just a button steal attempt, challenging rob to see if rob has any cajones.

We have no clue about whether rob likes his hand well enough to call, reraise, or fold.

I add this all up, and say its close, but the OOP thing tells me to not make a stand here.

 

[jayneseo]

So what happened?

 

[skoldpadda]

call for set value
fold if miss the flop
seems pretty simple

raising OOP is horrible

 

[mrsnake3695]

It's Mischman, Push all-in is the only real option.

 

[TUFF234]

If you only knew what I had. You'd do this :banghead: LOL

 

[aliengenius]

Who won the "something nice wrote about them in my signature"?
I vote skoldpadda.