88, Flop bet-jam

[bianconi_10]

pokerstars - 2,000/4,000 NL - Holdem - 9 players

BB: 14.17 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 18.03, 3Bet Preflop: 2.08, hands: 125)
UTG: 33.81 BB (VPIP: 12.50, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 50.00, Hands: 8)
UTG+1: 34.18 BB (VPIP: 21.28, PFR: 17.05, 3Bet Preflop: 6.25, Hands: 95)
MP: 61.53 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 3)
MP+1: 24.38 BB (VPIP: 30.26, PFR: 21.33, 3Bet Preflop: 16.67, Hands: 76)
MP+2: 70.34 BB (VPIP: 19.30, PFR: 11.71, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 114)
Hero (CO): 25.59 BB
BTN: 34.53 BB (VPIP: 15.09, PFR: 12.10, 3Bet Preflop: 13.11, Hands: 159)
SB: 39.54 BB (VPIP: 17.86, PFR: 7.41, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 28)

9 players post ante of 0.1 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.4 BB) Hero has 8c 8s

fold, UTG+1 raises to 2.22 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 2.22 BB, fold, fold, BB calls 1.22 BB

Flop: (8.07 BB, 3 players) 6d 3c 2s
BB checks, UTG+1 bets 4.22 BB, Hero raises to 23.26 BB and is all-in BB folds

Should I be folding this pre? Pre I don't like 3betting and we are never ahead of a 4bet shove but probably priced in to call. Folding might be too weak? I ran out of time on my timer pretty much so I resorted to my first instinct that the flop was unconnected to both of my opponents ranges and villain would continue with overcards a decent percentage of the time so I shoved to deny some equity from hands like AK, AQ, KQ and some other hands that want to semibluff

 

[eetenor]

Hoping for a miss.

PokerStars - 2,000/4,000 NL - Holdem - 9 players

BB: 14.17 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 18.03, 3Bet Preflop: 2.08, Hands: 125)
UTG: 33.81 BB (VPIP: 12.50, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 50.00, Hands: 8)
UTG+1: 34.18 BB (VPIP: 21.28, PFR: 17.05, 3Bet Preflop: 6.25, Hands: 95)
MP: 61.53 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 3)
MP+1: 24.38 BB (VPIP: 30.26, PFR: 21.33, 3Bet Preflop: 16.67, Hands: 76)
MP+2: 70.34 BB (VPIP: 19.30, PFR: 11.71, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 114)
Hero (CO): 25.59 BB
BTN: 34.53 BB (VPIP: 15.09, PFR: 12.10, 3Bet Preflop: 13.11, Hands: 159)
SB: 39.54 BB (VPIP: 17.86, PFR: 7.41, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 28)

9 players post ante of 0.1 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.4 BB) Hero has 8c 8s

fold, UTG+1 raises to 2.22 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 2.22 BB, fold, fold, BB calls 1.22 BB

Flop: (8.07 BB, 3 players) 6d 3c 2s
BB checks, UTG+1 bets 4.22 BB, Hero raises to 23.26 BB and is all-in BB folds

Should I be folding this pre? Pre I don't like 3betting and we are never ahead of a 4bet shove but probably priced in to call. Folding might be too weak? I ran out of time on my timer pretty much so I resorted to my first instinct that the flop was unconnected to both of my opponents ranges and villain would continue with overcards a decent percentage of the time so I shoved to deny some equity from hands like AK, AQ, KQ and some other hands that want to semibluff

Thank you for posting.

In this situation you cannot set mine so calling pre with 88 means that we are just hoping the villain misses so we can take a small pot. The problem is the villain can miss but the board texture can cause us to fold. This board was perfect for you but we cannot count on the cards helping us out.

It is most common for aggression to be recommended preflop. The reasons are, we in position can use board textures to cause our villains to fold so we do not just have to rely on the strength of a hand like 88.

As to being reraised preflop. It is actually better to discover when the bets are small where we may stand vs a villain's range than later when the same villain calls our shove and shows us AA.


Hope this helps

 

[bianconi_10]

Thank you for posting.

In this situation you cannot set mine so calling pre with 88 means that we are just hoping the villain misses so we can take a small pot. The problem is the villain can miss but the board texture can cause us to fold. This board was perfect for you but we cannot count on the cards helping us out.

It is most common for aggression to be recommended preflop. The reasons are, we in position can use board textures to cause our villains to fold so we do not just have to rely on the strength of a hand like 88.

As to being reraised preflop. It is actually better to discover when the bets are small where we may stand vs a villain's range than later when the same villain calls our shove and shows us AA.


Hope this helps

But do you think is better shove or just a 3-bet in this case? If I 3-bet and the board comes a range that vilain I have to bluff with to little bb behind,in this case shove looks like better,because I think the lip in this situation with this blinds seems good,dont you think?

 

[eetenor]

All-in is to be avoided

But do you think is better shove or just a 3-bet in this case? If I 3-bet and the board comes a range that vilain I have to bluff with to little bb behind,in this case shove looks like better,because I think the lip in this situation with this blinds seems good,dont you think?

Thank you for responding

If we shove pre all hands worse than ours fold and all hands better call. That is the worst thing that can happen. We lose big pots and win small pots. We should be doing the opposite.

In several of your posts you just want to shove so you do not have to make difficult decisions on the turn and river. The real money in NL is in those spots. We have to play past the flop because that is where we can make our opponents make the most mistakes.

Every action our villain takes narrows the villains range. If we just call a bet we learn very little. If we shove the villain can play near to perfect vs us.

NL is learning what errors our villains make and exploiting them. If we force them to play well by shoving all the time then we must then just count on variance to help us succeed.

Hope this helps

 

[fundiver199]

I like calling on BTN with 88. Folding is to weak-tight, and 3-betting mostly get worse hands to fold and better hands to call. On the flop I am also just calling. We flopped a nice overpair, but if he is betting for value, then he most likely has a better one, so it does not matter all that much. Sure its a good flop for us in the sense, that its not A, K, 9, which would be a terrible flop. But he still have all the better overpairs, and we are still way behind those.

So just call here and look to play the turn in position. See what BB does, see what card come, see what UTG+1 does, and then make a decisions. Win or lose a small pot and preserve your tournament life. A 20 BB stack is still absolutly workable, and if you constantly make camikaze plays like this, you will hurt your chances of running deep in tournaments. This would be less bad in a cash game, but in a tournament you always have to consider ICM, and your last chips are always worth more than additional chips.

 

[maxi_j]

Calling pre is good. You have position. Flop I see 3 good options A) Caling (you have position so its advantige), B) Raising 2x, C) Raising All in.