$8.8 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked Turbo: $8.8$ NLHE MTT Deep Stacked Turbo: Bottom set 187BB deep

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fundiver199

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$8.8 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked Turbo: $8.8$ NLHE MTT Deep Stacked Turbo: Bottom set 187BB deep

Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 27/22/1

888Poker, $8 + $0.80 - Hold'em No Limit - 20/40 (4 ante) - 8 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat - https://www.cardschat.com/hand-converter.php

UTG: 13,220 (331 bb)
UTG+1: 8,413 (210 bb)
MP: 7,488 (187 bb)
MP+1: 8,888 (222 bb)
CO: 8,738 (218 bb)
BU: 8,732 (218 bb)
SB: 6,869 (172 bb)
BB (Hero): 8,822 (221 bb)

Pre-Flop: (92) Hero is BB with 4♥ 4♣
2 players fold, MP raises to 120, 3 players fold, SB calls 100, Hero calls 80

Flop: (392) 4♦ J♥ 5♥ (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP bets 258, SB folds, Hero raises to 1,161, MP raises to 7,364 (all-in), Hero?

This hand is from a tournament called 8-8-8, which stands for 8-handed, 8$ buyin and 8.888 chips to start. Lowest blind level is 30/15, so players start with an unusually deep nearly 300BB stack. The hand happened in the second blind level, and stacks were still very deep with Villain being the effective stack for 187BB. All the action was on the flop, so two questions here:

1) Do you just check-call bottom set in a situation like this?
2) Do you stack it off for nearly 200BB?

I am holding back results for more unbiased discussion but will share them later. As for the opponent I had 98 hands on him, so VPIP and PFR is reliable, but I would not put to much weight on his 1 AF. This number often require more hands to be completely reliable. I will describe this player as a LAG. Definitely hitting the upper limit of, how many hands can be played profitably, but managing to keep his gap between VPIP and PFR relatively low.
 
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Sidetracked

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In a tournament, I will stack off with bottom set in that spot. Tournament players tend to be weaker than cash game specialists and will greatly overvalue 1 pr hands.

Since you posted the hand, he probably had a set of 5s or Js, but the result wouldn't change my decision. He will also often have a naked over pair, of even an AJ, KJ type of hand.
 
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Anglermeister

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1. I think both options are ok. Check raise is good for making your flush draw expensive. He will also call hands like AJ and KJ once or even twice.

Just calling is good to keep him bluffing, or he will often use second barrel barrels like AJ, KJ QJ to get value from your possible draws.

2. I'm here stack off to. With this buy-in I often see players doing this with a flush draw or AJ. In both situations you are ahead, against AJ even massive and you would have a very solid stack at the beginning to play and possibly get far.

Of course he can have a better set here, but then it was just an unfortunate cooler.
 
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300HPGOD

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I think the very deep spot is what throwing it off. If we were 80 BB or less (which is still deep) we would be snapping this off but the super deep status is clouding things. Looking at his range here he never is bluffing so we can discard that. It really comes down to JJ, 55, or Ax of Hearts. The two pair combos shouldnt have made a raise from MP and depending on his stats (you say 98 hands but I would still value that info) he probably isnt even raising 55 like this. So it comes down to JJ vs Ax suited where big Ax suited we are 3 to 1 ish to win and JJ we are killed. I still like calling giving that scenario. I know against that range if I am making it that tight we probably are behind if we equal weight them but Im not sure JJ would jam here since yes he might be afraid of the draw but he wouldnt want you to fold either where as Ax hearts wants you to fold. I weight Ax hearts here as a larger possibility. Crappy spot to be this deep and this reaction to your raise with bottom set but I think we go with it here especially if we have any confidence in being able to at least somewhat dismiss 55.
 
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fundiver199

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Thanks to everyone for your comments. I made the call, and the results can be seen here:

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/2arke4p
In a tournament, I will stack off with bottom set in that spot. Tournament players tend to be weaker than cash game specialists and will greatly overvalue 1 pr hands.

This is actually the point I wanted to make by sharing the hand. If you know how to play with deep stacks, there is so much value in showing up on time for tournaments, because a lot of even decent tournament regulars like this guy will make massive mistakes with deep stacks. In this exact tournament I have seen it multible times.

Since you posted the hand, he probably had a set of 5s or Js, but the result wouldn't change my decision. He will also often have a naked over pair, of even an AJ, KJ type of hand.

Kind of giggled when I read that one. Its true, that a lot of people mainly share hands, that they lost due to some kind of cooler or bad beat. Not this time though :D
 
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fundiver199

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In both situations you are ahead, against AJ even massive and you would have a very solid stack at the beginning to play and possibly get far.

I actually went on to win the entire tournament, and for sure this early dubble up contributed to that. Mainly because it gave me enough chips to survive losing some later flips. After the bubble my stack actually got down to around 5BB, but I made a comeback and won :)
 
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fundiver199

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I think the very deep spot is what throwing it off. If we were 80 BB or less (which is still deep) we would be snapping this off but the super deep status is clouding things.

For anything around 100BB or less I think, this is a super clear call even in a cash game, where people tend to have more correct stack-off ranges, at least the good players.

Looking at his range here he never is bluffing so we can discard that.

I agree. I even think, its kind of questionable, how often he is doing this with a draw, but as it turns out he might be massively overplaying a one pair hand "for protection", and this is the main reason why, for me this was a fairly easy call in a tournament.

and depending on his stats (you say 98 hands but I would still value that info) he probably isnt even raising 55 like this.

I think, a LAG is probably raising any pair from any position. Otherwise its kind of difficult to get PFR above 20%.
 
jaworek1405

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Hello, I see the result now, but without seeing the result I think we have to call this allin on the flop. Even if we lose this set vs better set we will have still some chips to play. I afraid a little here a better set, but I think we have to risk with bottom set and call this allin. Besides it is turbo tournament and I think that in turbo tournament is more crazy actions, players play faster. I read article recently about poker strategy and I read that set against set on the flop it happens only in 1% situations. Here, on this board only better set beat you, but it happens very very rarely. GL :)
 
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Anglermeister

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I actually went on to win the entire tournament, and for sure this early dubble up contributed to that. Mainly because it gave me enough chips to survive losing some later flips. After the bubble my stack actually got down to around 5BB, but I made a comeback and won :)

Congratulation to the Win! :)

Yeah, i think that's a good situation to double your stack. You have so many tournaments where you don't hit sets and where nothing goes from the beginning. It is all the more important to take advantage of such opportunities and take advantage of them, even if you are eliminated by an evil cooler every now and then.
 
Nr98

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In a tournament, I will stack off with bottom set in that spot. Tournament players tend to be weaker than cash game specialists and will greatly overvalue 1 pr hands.

Since you posted the hand, he probably had a set of 5s or Js, but the result wouldn't change my decision. He will also often have a naked over pair, of even an AJ, KJ type of hand.


Well yeah, especially in a $8 tourney I'd never fold this. You just run into massive punts way too often. Yes there will be some 55/JJ but likewise there will be heaps of FD, overpair, AJ, and even 76/medium pp hands that just decide to donate. Never fold here.

Edit: Just saw the result, yes there's pretty much no player at these stakes folding an overpair (although yes some may opt to flat rather, but I think they'll get it in a decent chunk of the time, to charge flushdraws and what not).
 
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1player2

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 27/22/1

888Poker, $8 + $0.80 - Hold'em No Limit - 20/40 (4 ante) - 8 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat - https://www.cardschat.com/hand-converter.php

UTG: 13,220 (331 bb)
UTG+1: 8,413 (210 bb)
MP: 7,488 (187 bb)
MP+1: 8,888 (222 bb)
CO: 8,738 (218 bb)
BU: 8,732 (218 bb)
SB: 6,869 (172 bb)
BB (Hero): 8,822 (221 bb)

Pre-Flop: (92) Hero is BB with 4♥ 4♣
2 players fold, MP raises to 120, 3 players fold, SB calls 100, Hero calls 80

Flop: (392) 4♦ J♥ 5♥ (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, MP bets 258, SB folds, Hero raises to 1,161, MP raises to 7,364 (all-in), Hero?

This hand is from a tournament called 8-8-8, which stands for 8-handed, 8$ buyin and 8.888 chips to start. Lowest blind level is 30/15, so players start with an unusually deep nearly 300BB stack. The hand happened in the second blind level, and stacks were still very deep with Villain being the effective stack for 187BB. All the action was on the flop, so two questions here:

1) Do you just check-call bottom set in a situation like this?
2) Do you stack it off for nearly 200BB?

I am holding back results for more unbiased discussion but will share them later. As for the opponent I had 98 hands on him, so VPIP and PFR is reliable, but I would not put to much weight on his 1 AF. This number often require more hands to be completely reliable. I will describe this player as a LAG. Definitely hitting the upper limit of, how many hands can be played profitably, but managing to keep his gap between VPIP and PFR relatively low.

Hello,

I assume he was on the nut flush draw or had top top or he has AA or KK. I'm all in and ahead of many hands. Even if he hits his flush you will have plenty of outs on the river. If he has a better set then it's just a cooler. If he has AA,KK then he is overplaying his hand and thinks you have the flush draw. Regardless I'm all in.
 
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