This is a discussion on $5 NLHE MTT: Turn raise after villain leads within the online poker forums, in the Tournament Hand Analysis section; I will give the specific hand details, but I am more interested in someone's opinion about this line in general.
effective stack 29.000 - Hero has
turn: 4c 9s 5c 7s (3670)
Villain now leads with 1200 and Hero raises to 4000 and villain calls
river 4c 9s 5c 7s 2c
It goes check check and villain shows the 57o and takes down the pot
My question is how do you like the turn raise and do you think it is a good play to raise villain turn leads after he check-calls the flop if we have top pair/second pair/ 2 pair? When the villain does this, I think most of the time he is ahead of us with top pair, 2 pairs, sets... But in this case, he also has all kinds of flush, straight and combo draws as well. In my mind raise can really attack those draws and not let villain realize their equity cheaply. Also, it stops villain from betting as a bluff and for value at the river almost all the time, so I feel that is also very important as we still have some showdown equity with top pair. Maybe my raise size could be smaller as I can accomplish all of the mentioned above with 3-3.2k instead of 4k?
If I didn't raise the turn and the villain bets again on the river with 1/2pot or more then it will put my hand in a very difficult spot as this board hits BB range better than me. In that case, I should sometimes call and sometimes fold in order to balance and play correctly? With raising the turn on the other hand and if I get to showdown almost all the time, is it then a much better play?
Standard open and I like to go 3BB when this deep.
Standard C-bet with top pair, and half pot is fine in a tournament. Since stacks are so deep, you could also go a bit larger, as would be typical in low stakes cash games.
I really dont like raising his donk bet. When he lead turn, he is representing a hand, that just improved. That means a straight (86 or 63), two pair or maybe a spade draw. Maybe once in a blue moon he could have a hand like 76 as well, which flopped an OESD and turned a pair, and which he is kind of confused about. But in general you only beat his draws here, and whenever that is the case, your hand is not strong enough to bet or raise. You have a bluff catcher, and with a bluff catcher you either call or fold. In this spot given the price and the fact, one more card is still to come, I think, you have a very clear call.
On the flop I would suggest betting bigger there as you want to charge more to draws that will call and also there are a lot of turn cards that we dont like or will slow us down so it is better to try to get a little more value on this street.
On the turn I like the raise if somehow you knew the villain was going to check the river to you. There is no way of knowing that is the case so you usually are raising into a hand that more than likely is beating you. However if you know the villain is someone who will check after they have been raised the previous street than I think this move pays off since you put 2800 extra into the pot and avoided (yes the 3rd club helped too) facing a river bet that would more than likely be more than 2800. I would recommend though that if you are going to raise you raise smaller here since if they are on a complete bluff they are folding to almost any sizing and if they have two pair or something still fairly strong they are rarely folding. If they are a player that is going to check after they are raised to then they likely will do that on even a just over min raise and it wouldnt need to be over 3x as you make it.
I think you may have missed an opportunity here to bluff the river. Not sure the villain will always fold two pair but after their turn donk bet and a call I would think they have 9x beat so with them checking the card that brought the flush in you might be able to steal that pot with another bet. Its risky since you are asking villain to fold two pair or some decent hand in a low stakes tournament which usually wont happen buts its possible.
re: Poker & $5 NLHE MTT: Turn raise after villain leads
Originally Posted by 300HPGOD
I think you may have missed an opportunity here to bluff the river.
I think, this hand is to strong to turn into a bluff. We would be trying to fold out a top pair, that has us outkicked, or something even stronger than that. And often times people are just not willing to fold that kind of hand. Sure frontdoor flush coming in is an ideal "scare card", but he dont even have a blocker to that. Most important though we have some showdown value. We beat busted spades and pair + OESD hands, that would certainly call our raise, if they decided to lead the turn.
Hello, I agree in the large part with guys. Cbet on the flop is standard, because we have to pair and we should bet for value. I prefer cbet like hero about 50% of the pot, because we are very deep. When fight two big stacks we should be careful. I think that I know what hero want to when plays raise on the turn, it is kind of block bet. So I think that on deep stack we can play raise on the turn. I agree raise on the turn seems a little better than call on the turn, because if opponent has something strong than on pair, he probably will bet for over 50% of the pot on the river and we can have a little hard decision on the river. The river card - I think that I take this check on the river like hero. I think that hero played correctly this hand, GL
I like the line, I think I would have played it the same way. I like the raise turn because as you decide you have many projects, the raise allows you to punish those projects and play the river more comfortable, since if it comes out betting again the river will be an easier decision.
re: Poker & $5 NLHE MTT: Turn raise after villain leads
I like the raise on the Turn as well. Even if he flopped an OESD, now he hits a card (or improve an already pair on the flop), and the only way I know how to gather info is putting pressure on him (he might easily think your bet on the flop was just a C-Bet and his pair of 7 could be good enough). That being said, I don't think the 3rd club on the river is a good spot to bluff a 3rd barrel and the check-check is pretty much standard. Too bad he had 2 pairs.
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