$5 NLHE MTT: K5s HU 20bb open shove?

[Dubstep]

PokerStars - $5+$0.10|25000/50000 Ante 10000 NL - Holdem - 2 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: 29.61 BB (VPIP: 39.13, PFR: 30.65, 3Bet Preflop: 22.73, hands: 70)
Hero (SB): 20.43 BB

2 players post ante of 0.2 BB, Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.9 BB) Hero has K:club: 8:club:

Hero raises to 20.23 BB and is all-in, BB calls 19.23 BB

Flop: (40.86 BB, 2 players) 7:diamond: 4:heart: T:spade:

Turn: (40.86 BB, 2 players) 9:diamond:

River: (40.86 BB, 2 players) T:diamond:

BB shows 9:spade: A:club: (Two Pair, Tens and Nines) (Pre 61%, Flop 76%, Turn 75%)
Hero shows K:club: 8:club: (One Pair, Tens) (Pre 39%, Flop 24%, Turn 25%)
BB wins 40.86 BB
:icon_scra

 

[Dubstep]

Ok so this was the first hand HU in a 5$ hyper. 1st was 750$ and 2nd was like 560$. The reason I jammed was because this player was very aggressive and thought there is a high chance if I open he is going to 3 bet jam and I would be in a tough spot.

 

[horizon12]

Its fine push, if you look push/fold Nash equilibrium or Sklansky Chubukov for push/fold HU...
In both chart need push with 20 BB K8s..

 

[WiZZiM]

Its fine push, if you look push/fold Nash equilibrium or Sklansky Chubukov for push/fold HU...
In both chart need push with 20 BB K8s..

Oh gawd..

Its mildly acceptable if you are playing 30 tables of low stakes to just blindly follow nash. But only because hu happens frequently and the averages even out over time. This is hu in an mtt which might happen what? 100 times a year if you play massive volume.


Using nash here is a horrible idea.

Anyways. Shoving while it might be profitable or correct by nash or icm standards that does not mean its the best play availiable to us.

We have 20 bbs. So much time left to play here theres simply no need to risk jamming it in here for 1.5bbs whena limp or min raise can get the job done also.

Almost always raise folding here first hand of the hu. But you could limp this also. But its not the greatest hand type to be limping with. So yeah raise and just let him take the pot when he jams over you... not every pot is yours to win.

You say if he jams you are in a tough spot. I fail to see why. Before you open you should already have decided if you are going to call or fold if he jams. If you think k5s is a call vs his 3betting range then raise call it off. But in reality this is never the case.

 

[RamdeeBen]

It's profitable to shove, but it certainly isn't the most profitable shove nor is it the most profitable line that's for sure. Why take a slightly +EV edge when we can get greater EV by either just limping or min raising.

 

[WiZZiM]

It's profitable to shove, but it certainly isn't the most profitable shove nor is it the most profitable line that's for sure. Why take a slightly +EV edge when we can get greater EV by either just limping or min raising.

Yes profitable. But thats a decieving word.

If you look closely at the amount of thr prize pool you win from making it you would never consider making it. Thats the big illusion here when people take small edges they are very small pieces of the prize pool and since this spot is rare (being hu in a mtt ft) it also never really reaches the long term which is what nash and icm sklansky etc calculations all utilize.

So basically stop.jamming these in as the result overall is a very small % of big prize pool. Id estimate you might make around 5 to 10 dollars jamming this in overall. Im guessing on the high side id be suprised if its anymore than that.

 

[horizon12]

I nothing don't know know about HU range raise/limp/push , but if 2 chart sayd push profitable , so this profitable push...

 

[WiZZiM]

I nothing don't know know about HU range raise/limp/push , but if 2 chart sayd push profitable , so this profitable push...

If those two charts told you to run in front of moving traffic would you?

This isnt a question of if this is profitable to shove. It most likely is, but its also profitable to shove aces here. You dont shove aces here. Do you?

Its really a question of what is the best move here that is presented to us. So horizon. Lets pretend you never saw those charts what do you think is the best move here using only logic and common sense... think about it.

 

[RamdeeBen]

Yes profitable. But thats a decieving word.

If you look closely at the amount of thr prize pool you win from making it you would never consider making it. Thats the big illusion here when people take small edges they are very small pieces of the prize pool and since this spot is rare (being hu in a mtt ft) it also never really reaches the long term which is what nash and icm sklansky etc calculations all utilize.

So basically stop.jamming these in as the result overall is a very small % of big prize pool. Id estimate you might make around 5 to 10 dollars jamming this in overall. Im guessing on the high side id be suprised if its anymore than that.

Oh for sure I totally agree with everything you're saying. I know for fact you would make a ton more money by either just limping here or min raising as opposed to the open shove. Just saying its profitable but not optimal by a long shot.

 

[WiZZiM]

Oh for sure I totally agree with everything you're saying. I know for fact you would make a ton more money by either just limping here or min raising as opposed to the open shove. Just saying its profitable but not optimal by a long shot.

Sorry was not directing the post at you... Mostly horizon and the op..

its just a huge hu flaw I see with players who are trying to be good to do things just because they are plus ev or positive edge or unexploitable when they dont actually know whay they mean.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

I nothing don't know know about HU range raise/limp/push , but if 2 chart sayd push profitable , so this profitable push...

Okie dokey, before I go on my rant, realize I'm only trying to help you.

If something is theoretically "profitable" it does not mean you should do it. Pimping myself out would be profitable, but would it be WORTH it? Do I have other means of profit available to me that might be MORE profitable and MORE worth it?

Could Starbucks turn a profit if they only charged $3 for every drink? Heck yeah, they could! So why don't they just charge $3 for every drink? Because they can make way MORE profit by charging different amounts for different drinks, and by charging as much as the customer is willing to pay given the situation..

The problem with those NASH charts and other equivalents is that they make 2 huge assumptions

1) your only options are pushing or folding
2) your opponent is calling "appropriately" according to the calling chart.

here, with 20 bbs heads up we have many more options available to us besides push/fold.

We also have enough time to develop some meta-game and find out how our opponent plays and whether or not we can and should adopt an exploitative strategy.

Those charts were never meant as the end all be all heads up strategy. they are just a tool for understanding game theory and different ways to approach solving a very complex problem. If poker could be solved by a simple chart like this, poker would not be a very fun game...it would be like Tic Tac Toe...

Please, I dare you to play me heads up with 20bb and a NASH chart....I will rule you.