Hello Everyone!

Its not my hand, but I have a discussion with that person if he played this hand right.

https://www.boomplayer.com/32220989_8EC62B574B

First I think his C-Bet needs to be higher to make any draws fold or being paid for them calling.

Second: I think He should fold this at turn, because I dont see how He could have a better hand. Villian will probably hold always something better than Hero. Hero may have 15 Out, but only against 2 Pair.

I agree, that a larger C-bet would be fine on a wet board like this. On the turn i think, your friend has to call it off. Its not a great spot, but he simply has to much going on to fold. He has top pair, which could be good, if Villain is going crazy with the A of spades, and he also has an OESD and a flushdraw, both of which are good, unless Villain already has an A or K high flush.

If your friend makes a larger C-bet, he will be getting a better price on the turn, which makes it even more of a call. Or the Villain simply check-raise all in on the flop, in which case your friend also has to call it off. The hand started with around 20 BB, and in that situation there is typically no way, you can get away from a good top pair. If someone is lucky enough to be able to beat that, it just is, what it is.

As with what Fundiver said - we start the hand shallow stacked as it is and when we connect with a hand as strong as top pair we are generally going with it here.

The cbet on the flop needs to be larger for sure. I would elect to go somewhere around 500-525 because of the potential draws on the board, I want to give them a bad price to continue and as I said, I am never folding here.

Cooler city that the villan has 2 pair here, but even them shoving the turn is a mistake - most of the time the only thing calling them off here are hands that beat 2 pair. As it is for us, we have top pair, a flush draw, and we are open ended for the straight, and we dont know it, but our K is live as well - we cannot fold the turn. Simply too much equity and again we are too short to come this far to give up

Will just add, that with our undersized C-bet, I would be on board with folding to the turn jam, if we did not have the Q of spades. Having that card matter, because it gives us additional equity, and its a relevant blocker as well. Us having Qs makes it impossible for him to have AsQs, KsQs or Qs9s. Realistically this hand should have gone larger C-bet, check-jam, call, and then it would just be cooler city, as Jon Poker say.

Its pretty unlucky to run into two pair, when we flop top pair with a good kicker. Especially on this kind of board, since QJ is pretty much the only two pair, he should ever have. He could have a better one pair or a set, but AA, KK, QQ, JJ and AQ would mostly have 3-bet before the flop. So Hero happened to run into one of only two realistic hands, that he was behind to: QJ or 33. Pretty unlucky and totally fine to go broke, when the hand started with 20 BB.

Definitely a larger cbet on the flop. And then just a really nasty spot. Odds wise, it's a fold, but in-game, I can see myself calling sometimes.

Originally Posted by Sidetracked

Odds wise, it's a fold

This can only be a fold, if you assume, that Villain is never bluffing.

I think turn call is ok. It is a good chance to will be doublled. Because flushes not always will be play this push. I think vs his push our hand very good

Originally Posted by SuzdalDEcor

I think turn call is ok. It is a good chance to will be doublled. Because flushes not always will be play this push. I think vs his push our hand very good

I think, this is an important point. If Villain turned a flush and especially a K or A high flush, would he really make this donk overbet shove? Would he not rather check-raise or lead for a smaller size, so that he entice Hero to come along? Villains turn line look like a "please fold now" move, which typically either mean a semi-bluff or a made hand, which dont want to see the river put out a 1-liner to a straight or flush.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

I think, this is an important point. If Villain turned a flush and especially a K or A high flush, would he really make this donk overbet shove? Would he not rather check-raise or lead for a smaller size, so that he entice Hero to come along? Villains turn line look like a "please fold now" move, which typically either mean a semi-bluff or a made hand, which dont want to see the river put out a 1-liner to a straight or flush.

This is entirely true. While certain villans will flip their hand face up here and shove a straight or better - most of the time I think it's going to be 2 pair, who is too scared to face a river card and wants to take the pot down now. As I said before this move is generally a mistake by the villan...because aside from our hand specifically, most of the time the villan is only getting called here by hands that beat them! Think about it, what kind if hands should be snap calling their overbet? When they make this move because they are too scared to play a river card, one of two things generally happen - one, they get a fold and pickup the pot and move on missing out on any additional value - or two, they get snapped off by a better hand and start whining about how they flopped two pair and lost anyways on the wettest board in America!

Anyhow, its certainly not going to be 2 pair making this move every time - but I think more often than not its hands lesser than the straight. Just my 2c

Originally Posted by Jon Poker

As I said before this move is generally a mistake by the villan...because aside from our hand specifically, most of the time the villan is only getting called here by hands that beat them!

Absolutely true. Villain misplayed his two pair pretty bad. On the flop he essentially had the nuts on a wet board, only losing to 5 combos of sets. Yet he just passively check-called a very small bet from Hero. This was a mandatory spot to check-raise, but he selected to slowplay. And then on the turn, when a really bad card hit, he panicked and almost turned his hand into a value bluff. Its not only, that a flush is now possible, its also that 45 combos made a straight, and Hero can have most if not all of them, when he opened from CO.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

Absolutely true. Villain misplayed his two pair pretty bad. On the flop he essentially had the nuts on a wet board, only losing to 5 combos of sets. Yet he just passively check-called a very small bet from Hero. This was a mandatory spot to check-raise, but he selected to slowplay. And then on the turn, when a really bad card hit, he panicked and almost turned his hand into a value bluff. Its not only, that a flush is now possible, its also that 45 combos made a straight, and Hero can have most if not all of them, when he opened from CO.

BINGO! I hope this doesnt feel like thread hijacking - Fundiver and I find spots like this to discuss here quite often and we are only attempting to highlight key elements in these hands in Hope's for improvements not only to the original poster, but anyone who would read this thread!.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

I think, this is an important point. If Villain turned a flush and especially a K or A high flush, would he really make this donk overbet shove? Would he not rather check-raise or lead for a smaller size, so that he entice Hero to come along? Villains turn line look like a "please fold now" move, which typically either mean a semi-bluff or a made hand, which dont want to see the river put out a 1-liner to a straight or flush.

I sayed "not always". Small flush may play this line, because they dont wanna see 1more spade on the river

Originally Posted by fundiver199

I think, this is an important point. If Villain turned a flush and especially a K or A high flush, would he really make this donk overbet shove? Would he not rather check-raise or lead for a smaller size, so that he entice Hero to come along? Villains turn line look like a "please fold now" move, which typically either mean a semi-bluff or a made hand, which dont want to see the river put out a 1-liner to a straight or flush.

I have seen lots of time that someone goes all in with nuts, and there is almost always someone who will call in lower buy in tournaments. I totally agree with all you said, but realistically we don’t know what kind of holding Villian has. I would really consider here to fold if it’s not rebuy tournament. It’s to many hands that beat us, and we have only one pair. It’s top pair but it’s just one

Originally Posted by popstani

I have seen lots of time that someone goes all in with nuts

This does happen yes, and the worse the player, the more likely it is.

Originally Posted by popstani

and there is almost always someone who will call in lower buy in tournaments.

5,5$ is not the lowest buyin MTT, you find online. That would typically be 0,5$ or 0,55$. PokerStars actually does not even classify a 5,5$ MTT as micro stakes but low stakes.

Originally Posted by popstani

I totally agree with all you said, but realistically we don’t know what kind of holding Villian has.

Agree but we still need to assign him a range, and I will certainly not include all combos of the nut flush in that range. Which matter, because it is a hand, we are drawing completely dead to. I think, people on average tend to 3-bet suited aces quite a bit. I also think, they tend to check-raise a flushdraw on the flop, especially against a small C-bet. And I think, they tend to not make this turn play with the nut flush, unless they are really bad.

Originally Posted by popstani

I would really consider here to fold if it’s not rebuy tournament. It’s to many hands that beat us, and we have only one pair. It’s top pair but it’s just one

If we only had top pair, I would certainly fold on a board this wet. But we also have a straight and flush draw, which are both live, unless Villain already has a flush.

Originally Posted by SuzdalDEcor

I sayed "not always". Small flush may play this line, because they dont wanna see 1more spade on the river

Agree but even for a small flush the idea of seeing a river is less scary than for two pair. A small flush does not need to worry about the 12 cards, that put a 1-liner to a straight. In fact a small flush would like to see such a card, since then maybe it can get paid.