$400 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: Was this the correct play?

[natsgrampy]

Day 2 of a 2 day Deep Stack tourney.

57 left 54 places pay.

I have 85K in chips, avg is 132K.

Blinds are 500/2500/5000 and going up to 500/3000/6000 next hand.

I am first to act, and have A,K off suit.

BB has me slightly out chipped and has been defending his blind without having much of a hand. Table itself is fairly tight.

I raised to 15K and folded around to BB who thinks for a couple minutes then calls the raise.

Flop is 2c, 3d, 6c. Big Blind immediately shoves all in.

I knew he hadn't hit that flop and I snap called.

He turned over J, 10c

Turn was 7h and river was 8c. Nice hand Sir!

I could have folded around for a few more hands and made the money, but, I think I had the right read on this guy, and the best hand, just the wrong results.

Thoughts?

 

[redwards92]

Day 2 of a 2 day Deep Stack tourney.

57 left 54 places pay.

I have 85K in chips, avg is 132K.

Blinds are 500/2500/5000 and going up to 500/3000/6000 next hand.

I am first to act, and have A,K off suit.

BB has me slightly out chipped and has been defending his blind without having much of a hand. Table itself is fairly tight.

I raised to 15K and folded around to BB who thinks for a couple minutes then calls the raise.

Flop is 2c, 3d, 6c. Big Blind immediately shoves all in.

I knew he hadn't hit that flop and I snap called.

He turned over J, 10c

Turn was 7h and river was 8c. Nice hand Sir!

I could have folded around for a few more hands and made the money, but, I think I had the right read on this guy, and the best hand, just the wrong results.

Thoughts?

I just open ship here preflop with your stack size. Also if I ain't in ship mode with blinds and antes as high they are relative to stack sizes I probably am in min raise mode where most of the hands I open are for min raises whether i am at the top or bottom of my range.

Basically as played fold flop. Your equity in the hand vs his wide range and the fact that we are pretty much on the bubble makes this a fold for me.

 

[MadMaddie]

When there is a player in the big blind and I know they will call alot of the time even when the stacks are not very deep I can see raising it a bit more preflop. But I think the answer by red is correct and I would fold to the player's shove. I would be puzzled though why he would shove like that and I know that lots of not good players will do that with a draw.
If he thought you missed the flop why wouldn't he check raise allin instead? But how would he even know for sure you did not have a big pair like Aces or Kings or Queens. His play seems bad and probably with a weak hand but I would still fold and save the rest of my chips for another hand.

 

[CATLICKER]

Fold for me as well.

 

[Brodermatt]

Hmm, I would shove all in pre-flop. The table is fairly tight, and I don't think that the BB with J 10c will be willing to lose such an amount.

 

[duggs]

if you are going to raise/call then minraise, but i probably just shove since you arent going to get credit for having a r/f range here on the bubble

 

[jordanbillie]

^this

 

[rdm4k]

shove pre plz!!!!

if u got read u can make some weird moves such as r/c, limp shove or something like that.
r/f on the bubble 17x with AK it's not poker imho (especially with your stack under avg).

as played he's got lots of stuff which crash your hand there. and as short stack, open 3x to fold is horrible

 

[Bowman26]

I agree with the others to either get it all in pre-flop and force him to decide he wants to play junk or fold right then. But with the way the hand went after the flop I would have tossed the hand myself as AKo without hitting the flop is no longer all that strong. Personally I limp with AK because I usually never hit with it and on the rare occasion I do no one thinks I have it because I limped.

 

[natsgrampy]

Thanks,
I thought about it after and that was my assessment too.

I should have shoved PF, and let the cards fall as they may. I think everyone would have folded and I would have been in the money.

That being said, I don't feel bad about the move I did make as I did have the best hand up to the river. If his club doesn't hit, I am sitting top ten in the tourney and chip leader at the table.

 

[Abedin120]

You didn't have to go all-in on the flop. You should go fold, because you didn't have any pair and like you say 57 players left (54 places pay). So for my opinion you din't have to risk and go all-in in situations like that, or if you think to go all-in then you should go all-in pre-flop, to not give to your opponent a chance to make some pair or flush like in this situation and eliminate you from the tournament.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

I disagree with those who say to open ship preflop. Why turn your hand into a bluff while simultaneously risking everything? Why not go for some value and use your post flop skills to outplay your opponent with one of the strongest (yet most vulnerable) starting hands?

*edit to add: if you are not confident in your post flop skills, then go ahead and ship preflop; just make sure you aren't giving away bet sizing tells...which basically means you need to open ship your entire playable range...I'm not a fan of shove or fold poker so I don't like this move much...but it is a viable way to play near the bubble

I agree with those who advocate a smaller raise, but as described your preflop play was not the problem. whether you min raise, 2.5x raise or 3x raise, your error was on the flop.

Once that flop comes even though you suspect he is pulling a "stop n go"....he got the jump on you...plain and simple. That is why the "stop n go" is hard to defend against. I think you should fold on the flop. It's a big fold, it's a hard fold. Winning tourney players make hard folds. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong but they survive to play another hand.

This summer at the wsop I had this guy who kept pulling the stop n go on me near the bubble in a large MTT tourney. It was beyond frustrating. I almost called once with AK on a T high board just to prove I knew he was full of spit, but instead I kept my eye on the prize and folded...only later to have him stop n go me once again and this time I had a hand I could call with!!! BINGO!!! I got all those chips back and then some....I called him off with 2nd pair and he cried like a baby all the way to the rail....

 

[duggs]

few points i disagree with, disliking shoving in and of itself isnt really a viable argument.

firstly, it can be perfectly logical to have a raising range in lp and only a shoving range in ep, because the incentive to steal is less in ep so its harder to have a r/f range and thus harder to get shoved on wide. if this were on the button i would strongly advocate limping.

lastly in many stop n go situations calling with AK would be better than calling with 2nd pair, hand equivalency, clean outs and domination all considered.

 

[redwards92]

I don't know if I am missing something here but with blinds and antes at what they are at with that stack size it is an open ship for me every time. .....

17BB with blinds and antes up next hand? ship all day.
Not much room for postflop play there unless you min raise and even then still barely any post flop play.

I don't see how open shipping is turning the hand into a bluff.

 

[CalBandGreat]

Since you are so close to the bubble, you should just shove pre. Once you make it 15K and he calls, you have to fold that flop. He usually has a small pair and you are a 3 to 1 dog. The best case is that he has a flush draw and you are only slightly behind. Rarely he has something like A4 that you are way ahead of, but that is very rare. Even if showed his hand after he shoved the flop, its still a fold. Obviously it is +cEV to call, but its -$EV, which is all that matters.

 

[CalBandGreat]

Also min raising and calling a shove pre is a reasonable option depending on the pay structure, the way that your table is playing, your skill edge and if a min cash means much to your bankroll, but I still prefer a shove in most cases in this spot.

 

[natsgrampy]

Appreciate all the insight.

I don't normally make that call, but, having been at the table with this guy for 2 1/2 hours, I figured I had him.

I think now in hindsight that, I probably should have just folded when he shoved. I would have been ITM before the next time the blinds came back around to me.