$3 NLHE STT: JJ overplayed preflop against tight passive?

[mrdeedreid]

Weird situation.

Dealt JJ. Stack sizes about equal at t2500.
Playing two tight passive oponents.
I decided to shove my JJ from the Button. Villain 1 folds. Villain 2 called with K8s.

Figured his calling range was a bit tighter than K8s. Figured this was the right play.

Trying to find that balance between appropriate aggression and solid discipline. So hard to do.

$150/$300 Blinds

Tournament $2.75 + $0.25 - Table #1 (real money)

Seat 4 is the button

Total number of players : 3

Seat 4: hero ( $2,393 )
Seat 6: villain 1 ( $2,574 )
Seat 9: villain 2 ( $2,233 )

Dealt to hero [ Js, Jc ]
hero raises [$2,363]
villain 1 folds
villain 2 calls [$1,903]


Question: It's not appropriate to input actual names of players on here is it? I replaced them with Villain from the original HH. Is that proper etiquette?

 

[WiZZiM]

Shove here is really good. change your read with this guy to "caller" or "impatient", so you know in the future that he can call wide.

without that info i'd be shoving a range of around All broadway, all pairs and some funky sc's like 109s 87s etc. With the new read i'd trim my ranges to Most broadway, AT+ 44+ folding the sc's now.

 

[byrnsiey330]

this is almost a no doubt underdog against, and if they have them that's just tough luck and poker. You're still a slight favorite against AK, AQ, AJ(unlikely), and that's a super tight range.

 

[jackaoliver]

Question: It's not appropriate to input actual names of players on here is it? I replaced them with Villain from the original HH. Is that proper etiquette?

Yea, it is etiquette to hide names, you usually replace the names with positions, and a hand converter can do this for you, like the cardschat hand converter.

https://www.cardschat.com/hand/

 

[mrdeedreid]

a hand converter can do this for you, like the cardschat hand converter.

https://www.cardschat.com/hand/

Nice. Thanks for the post.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

Well, this spot is a clear push, and I'm sorry if you got sucked out on by K8.

But now that you have this info on this guy how to adjust your pushing, raising and calling ranges is the more interesting question.

Wizzim hit the nail on the head. In a nutshell, increase your value shoving range and decrease your shove range that requires fold equity to be +EV since you don't have too much fold equity. For example, against a standard opponent shoving a hand like T8s is +EV because you can reasonably expect them to fold hands like K8 and JT....but versus this guy you cannot.

The only minor detail I might disagree with Wizzim on is that I'd expand my Ace shoving range down to A8 or A7 because if he's calling with K8 then he's certainly calling with worse than A8

the only other thing to look for, is how does a player like this respond to a non-shove raise in his BB? Does he flat or 3bet? if he usually flats and rarely 3bets...then you might take a lower risk line and just raise, then jam any flop you connect with, or any flop he checks. Just a possibility for lower variance against a high frequency caller...may or may not be ideal...

 

[WiZZiM]

Well, this spot is a clear push, and I'm sorry if you got sucked out on by K8.

But now that you have this info on this guy how to adjust your pushing, raising and calling ranges is the more interesting question.

Wizzim hit the nail on the head. In a nutshell, increase your value shoving range and decrease your shove range that requires fold equity to be +EV since you don't have too much fold equity. For example, against a standard opponent shoving a hand like T8s is +EV because you can reasonably expect them to fold hands like K8 and JT....but versus this guy you cannot.

The only minor detail I might disagree with Wizzim on is that I'd expand my Ace shoving range down to A8 or A7 because if he's calling with K8 then he's certainly calling with worse than A8

the only other thing to look for, is how does a player like this respond to a non-shove raise in his BB? Does he flat or 3bet? if he usually flats and rarely 3bets...then you might take a lower risk line and just raise, then jam any flop you connect with, or any flop he checks. Just a possibility for lower variance against a high frequency caller...may or may not be ideal...

yep totally agree with you there, i'm a little nitty with weaker AX hands. but yeah, if he's calling with Ax in general A8-A7s seems fine! I'd actually throw in KQ and KJs as well here for the same reasons, we dominate a lot of his calling range



I absolutely love the last paragraph you post there jacki! The reason it's so great is because it's easier to get fold equity postflop rahter than preflop.

HOWEVER.......... that play is best reserved for when we are actually OOP. we can raise/jam flops first, if we raise here and he bets flop, it's spew central for our stack size . If OOP, i love this play and use it all the time vs callers.

 

[WiZZiM]

pokerstars Hand #115323351801: Tournament #901414471, $3.19+$0.31 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2014/04/26 21:34:07 AEST [2014/04/26 7:34:07 ET]
Table '901414471 1' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: LoserProduce (1695 in chips)
Seat 2: andyan22 (1040 in chips)
Seat 3: IEatsFish (2090 in chips)
Seat 5: alamo716 (1095 in chips)
Seat 6: Andie Garcia (3080 in chips)
IEatsFish: posts small blind 75
alamo716: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IEatsFish [8d 3d]
Andie Garcia: folds
LoserProduce: folds
andyan22: folds
IEatsFish: raises 150 to 300
alamo716: calls 150
*** FLOP *** [Jd Ah 9s]
IEatsFish: bets 750
alamo716: folds
Uncalled bet (750) returned to IEatsFish
IEatsFish collected 600 from pot
IEatsFish: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 600 | Rake 0
Board [Jd Ah 9s]
Seat 1: LoserProduce folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: andyan22 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: IEatsFish (small blind) collected (600)
Seat 5: alamo716 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: Andie Garcia folded before Flop (didn't bet)


Here is a great example of when it's a great time to use that play. This time with junk that would be +$ev to shove preflop but doing this we create extra fold equity postflop, we still get plenty of folds preflop. and we have extra value the times he folds postflop. Should have made it like 350 preflop though, so the shove would have been pot sized, no big deal.

the only downside is that we sometimes let him see a flop, hit a hand and we look like idiots. But keep in mind, if he's calling preflop to a min-raise, he's likely calling a shove as well, so it's essentially the same result.

I know the couter-arguments that he will call tighter to shoves, which is not always the case when players get shortstacked.