This is a discussion on $3.50 NLHE STT: High card + draws on a paired board within the online poker forums, in the Tournament Hand Analysis section; Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 59/2/2
Although this is only the 7th hand of this STT, the HUD stats are from 40 hands . I could already be
Isolating the limpers is certainly fine, but out of position I might go even bigger than this, especially since its the first blind level, and stacks are deep.
I think, its fine to C-bet this flop. Its a fairly dry texture with no flushdraw, so you can get some folds here. You can also get called by some worse hands like QJ, and when you are behind, you are never drawing dead with a gutshot and an overcard. Checking is not bad though, but personally i probably keep up my agression and bet this flop. As played obviously never folding to a min-bet of less than 10% pot, but no point in check-raising either.
You picked up a flushdraw, but I dont like leading out now. The issue is, what are you really representing here other than actually a flushdraw? You are kind of saying, the K helped you, but if you had a K, would you really have taken that passive line on the flop? Of course not. This opponent is a fish, but even fish can sometimes do basic hand reading, and this lead is never representing any strong hand.
You nailed your gutshot, and obviously you should now bet for value as played. I like the relatively small sizing, because I think, if he had a K, we would have heard about it. Its also less likely, he has a K with two of them on the table. Its more likely, he has a J or a T, so I am mainly trying to get called by that kind of hand, and even fish can sometimes find a fold, if you make it to expensive.
Getting raised here just sucks. For me the microstakes bible is still "Crushing the micro stakes", because the psycology of a player like this has really not changed. And one of the mottos from that book is "a raise on the turn is usually the nuts, a raise on the river is always the nuts".
And he can certainly have some boats here. KJ, KT, TT, 33 from a player like this probably even K3 or at least K3s. Even so we are very high in our range, and we are getting 3:1, so we only need to win this 25% of the time. And could he have a straight as well and be overplaying it? Either same hand as ours, or the dummy end with Q9? I dont know man. I think, I probably make a crying call as well and pay him off.
Just want to add, that I dont think, Hero did anything really bad in this hand, and in a sense he actually got away relatively cheaply. So its mostly just one of those annoying situations, where we improve when behind. And this is just something, which will happen from time to time
Just today I think it could have saved me some chips
I should add perhaps, that it mostly refer to a situation, where we raised preflop, bet the flop, bet the turn, and then someone puts in a raise. Or raised preflop, bet the flop, bet the turn, bet the river, and then someone puts in a raise.
But even so there is some of the same dynamics in this hand, especially considering the player type. The opponent in this hand is super loose and passive, but suddenly he wakes up with a raise on the river. Thats just never a bluff, and we kind of know it, which is why, if we call here, its only because we are getting a price, and maybe he could be overplaying a strong hand, that we beat or chop with.
After I posted my answer to you, I actually plugged the hand into Equilab, and for this call to be profitable, we need him to have almost all 16 combos of Q9, or alternatively bluffs or trips. If his worst hand is AQ, then we are making a losing call, and overall the best decision here was probably to fold. But its a really difficult fold to make in real time, so I would not beat myself up over this one.
Thanks again. In game I knew there was a strong chance he had a boat but convinced myself he could be overplaying something else, as I was rather attached my A-high straight!
May I ask, your bible "Crushing the Microstakes", who is the author?
May I ask, your bible "Crushing the Microstakes", who is the author?
Nathan Villiams AKA Blackrain79. He has a "ask me anything" thread in the cash game forum. It is mainly meant for cash games though and also somewhat old, so if you play tournaments, maybe just take the CC 30 day course by Collin Moshman and Katie Dozier, if you have not done so already. If this specific hand though the SnG had just started, and the effective stack was 72BB, so this essentially played just like a cash game hand. But in the long run most of the money in SnGs are won or lost with 10-30BB stacks, so this is, what you mainly need to become good at.
Thanks. I thought that was the one. I've read some of his stuff before and there's definitely some that can help me but yeah, as I solely play tourneys, I figured I'd not read the whole book.
Collin & Katie's course on here has been and continues to be a great help to me!
re: Poker & $3.50 NLHE STT: High card + draws on a paired board
Originally Posted by fundiver199
For me the microstakes bible is still "Crushing the micro stakes", because the psycology of a player like this has really not changed. And one of the mottos from that book is "a raise on the turn is usually the nuts, a raise on the river is always the nuts".
With regards to blackrains book. He is a great analytical micro crusher - don't get me wrong - but 80% of that book is strictly related to his direct experience with cash games, not tournament play.
That quote - although pretty accurate, is also quite inaccurate when playing micro tourneys. Roughly 20% of the time a turn raise is a super draw, like OESD with top pair and the nut flush draw. The rest of the time it is a set. 15% +/-10% on the river - it is a bad bluff with some kind of marginal blocker - or an overplayed marginal hand that isn't the nuts, trips on a straight runout, or nut straight on a flush completing river.
Agree with every letter of the rest of your post though - especially river play - it's just - blegh - call. And we see we are up against exactly the type of player we thought we were.
That quote - although pretty accurate, is also quite inaccurate when playing micro tourneys.
Its true, that the quote does not quite apply to this situation, since hero checked the flop, and the quote refer to a situation, where we raise preflop, C-bet every street postflop, and then suddenly our opponent wakes up with a raise on one of the late streets. I still think, it applies a little bit to this situation though, because the opponent raised us on the river. So its still a spot, where he took a very passive line throughout the hand, and then suddenly woke up on the river.
Which to use a more formal phraise is certainly an underbluffed line from a fish. So the only reason, I would probably call here, is because, we are getting 3:1, so we only need to win 25% of the time. And maybe he could occationally have a strong hand but one, that we beat. Like a worse flush or a straight or even trips.
As for this being a tournament hand rather than a cash game hand, I dont think, that makes a lot of difference. The fish psycology is still the same, and the main difference between tournaments and cash games is, that stacks are often shallower in tournaments. And its true, that a turn raise does not mean quite the same thing, if we are only 30-40BB deep rather than the case game typical 100BB. So I am not suggesting to use this quote uncritical in tournaments. We need to understand, when it apply, and when maybe not so much.