$3,30 NL HE MTT: Would you fold an overpair against a shove?

[Andyreas]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

MTT

Buy-in

3,30

Currency

$

Hey forum,

just wanted to get some feedback on this hand. Was my call correct and just bad luck or is an overpair not good enough to risk all of your stack, even on a rainbow board?

pokerstars, $2.94 + $0.36 - Hold'em No Limit - 250/500 (30 ante) - 8 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

Perky Throne (UTG): 3,023 (6 bb)
markinhus3 (UTG+1): 8,201 (16 bb)
Fet Fandango (MP): 13,879 (28 bb)
yolobasedgod (MP+1): 23,481 (47 bb)
AndyreasDE (CO): 11,657 (23 bb)
Ed Sato (BU): 22,271 (45 bb)
burky433 (SB): 6,632 (13 bb)
TigerHuang0922 (BB): 10,831 (22 bb)

Pre-Flop: (990) Hero (AndyreasDE) is CO with K♦ K♥
3 players fold, yolobasedgod (MP+1) calls 500, AndyreasDE (CO) raises to 2,000, 3 players fold, yolobasedgod (MP+1) calls 1,500

Flop: (4,990) 2♥ 7♣ Q♠ (2 players)
yolobasedgod (MP+1) checks, AndyreasDE (CO) bets 2,495, yolobasedgod (MP+1) raises to 21,451 (all-in), AndyreasDE (CO) calls 7,132 (all-in)

Turn: (24,244) 6♥ (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (24,244) 5♣ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: 24,244

Showdown:
yolobasedgod (MP+1) shows Q♦ 7♦ (two pair, Queens and Sevens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 16%, Flop: 75%, Turn: 82%, River: 100%)

AndyreasDE (CO) shows K♦ K♥ (a pair of Kings)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 84%, Flop: 25%, Turn: 18%, River: 0%)

yolobasedgod (MP+1) wins 24,244

 

[Misaki]

no brainer call. That kind of guys can even push random 7x or other worse hands. Versus his range you are ahead. Unless you know he is a super passive guy. But still. You guys have 23bb effective stack. Folding is for sure -ev in a long run. You can't do nothing. Wp

 

[fundiver199]

You can use SPR as a guineline to, when you go with an overpair on a clean board, and when you might consider folding it, if the opponent jam:

0-3 automatic stack-off
3-6 situational
>6 only stack-off with specific read or reason

In this case the board was as clean, as it could possibly be. QQ is a raise preflop, and hands like Q7, Q2 and 72 are all a fold, so you should only be behind to 22 or 77. So on this board I would definitely not fold, unless the SPR was more than 6, and perhaps not even then. And in this hand the SPR was not even 2, so its a totally automatic stack-off, and it would even be a stack-off for far more chips than this.

This time the opponent did in fact have Q7, but that means, he also have Q3, Q4, Q5, Q6, Q8, Q9, QT QJ, A7, K7, Q7 and a lot of other hands, that he will likely also go with. And in top of that you were getting almost 3:1, and you had 25% equity on the flop. So even if he showed his cards, it would only be slightly negativ EV to call. So its just one of those spots, where you curse a little inside, because a fish got lucky on you, and then you register for the next tournament

 

[jeambeam]

Hey forum,

just wanted to get some feedback on this hand. Was my call correct and just bad luck or is an overpair not good enough to risk all of your stack, even on a rainbow board?

PokerStars, $2.94 + $0.36 - Hold'em No Limit - 250/500 (30 ante) - 8 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

Perky Throne (UTG): 3,023 (6 bb)
markinhus3 (UTG+1): 8,201 (16 bb)
Fet Fandango (MP): 13,879 (28 bb)
yolobasedgod (MP+1): 23,481 (47 bb)
AndyreasDE (CO): 11,657 (23 bb)
Ed Sato (BU): 22,271 (45 bb)
burky433 (SB): 6,632 (13 bb)
TigerHuang0922 (BB): 10,831 (22 bb)

Pre-Flop: (990) Hero (AndyreasDE) is CO with K♦ K♥
3 players fold, yolobasedgod (MP+1) calls 500, AndyreasDE (CO) raises to 2,000, 3 players fold, yolobasedgod (MP+1) calls 1,500

Flop: (4,990) 2♥ 7♣ Q♠ (2 players)
yolobasedgod (MP+1) checks, AndyreasDE (CO) bets 2,495, yolobasedgod (MP+1) raises to 21,451 (all-in), AndyreasDE (CO) calls 7,132 (all-in)

Turn: (24,244) 6♥ (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (24,244) 5♣ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: 24,244

Showdown:
yolobasedgod (MP+1) shows Q♦ 7♦ (two pair, Queens and Sevens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 16%, Flop: 75%, Turn: 82%, River: 100%)

AndyreasDE (CO) shows K♦ K♥ (a pair of Kings)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 84%, Flop: 25%, Turn: 18%, River: 0%)

yolobasedgod (MP+1) wins 24,244

if i is you, i will not to going shove my stack.. sometime we have to fold over pair but sometime not. depend on conditions.
i will give u some reason to maybe a stupid newbie reason so that easy to understand :

1. if you wanna All in. do it on the pre flop not after card dealt. because you never never know what are they hold. all of ranges are just assume, opinion.

2. still remember even you had pocket bullet (AA), it just a pair. just favorite in in the begining. mostly they beat by small pair make trip and quad after showdown

3. You should not to FOLD and can do ALL in if your stack is the biggest or the opponent just have maximum 25% - 30% of your stack. if other condition beat beat happen, you are still have a live still have a bullet to revanges

4 you should not to FOLD or can do ALL in if your stack less than 10BB because it just a trash chips. we dont know will get next oppotunity or not.

5. dont ever do ALL IN exception you are already had a NUT

6. Dont try to hit and dare opponent which have the biggest stack or much more stack than you. because its not hurt him but hurt for you.

back to your case MP1 limp because he just have Q7suit and no one bet. so that he limp to make sure what card are dealt in pre flop. as he action he is a thigh player buy doing passive. if he had a monster and aggressive typical of course he will put in 3bet. from this information if you ALL IN absolutely he gonna FOLD because he is not aggressive typical but he bet 3BB maybe he will call your ALL IN. you will get this information his history as long as you play with him.

and than CO raise 4bet. its mean you tell him that you had a monster. MP1 accept your information that you had a monster. but CO raise is still normaly raise 4BB those why he joined because by invest 4BB he will got his combination. Straight draw or Flush draw, at least a pair. and he Called.

after FLOP dealt he got a jackpot 2 pair Q and 7. in this condition i willl got your ranges.
if you pocket A or pocket K i still win because i already got 2 pair but CO still hunting the connecting
if CO AK also MP1 still win because just 2 card dealt left to make 2 card connecting become a straight in other CO just waiting 1 card more dealt to make FULL HOUSE.

if that information happen and beat MP+1?? no worry for him because he still a live and can collect more chips later

the conclusion from any position MP1 win. if i MP+1 so do i will call CO ALL IN

hope this information can help to answer your quetions.

 

[300HPGOD]

As mentioned from others this is a call. I will add that once we raise pre flop (I like the size you used) then we are probably looking to play for stacks with the amount of chips we have left and size of the pot (SPR). So we should then be looking to play the hand in a way where we can most easily and best get the chips in and be called. Outside of an ace flopping, which it didnt, we should be betting the flop to setup jamming at some point later in the hand and when we bet the flop we want to get called in this spot. Therefore, I think your flop size is bigger than it needs to be. This isnt relevant in this specific hand but it will be in other hands when you are in a similar spot. I would advocate going smaller on the flop, especially with this board, as we can bet something like 2000 here (or even 1600) and still be under a pot sized shove on the turn if thats the route we go.

 

[fundiver199]

Therefore, I think your flop size is bigger than it needs to be.

I agree. Its kind of a nit-picky thing and did not matter for the outcome of the hand, but with an SPR of less than 2 we can use very small bet sizes and still get stacks in. An on a dry board there is nothing wrong with making it a 3 street hand. Also its important to understand, that when we put in more than 1/3 of the effective stack on the flop (leaving less than a pot sized bet behind), then both players are committed to the pot, if Villain gives action. This gives the opponent a chance to fold hands, he dont want to stack off with, and it also means, that he can never call the flop and then fold later, unless he has a busted draw.

A lot of players will react to that situation by just check-jamming the flop themselfes, which mean, that his check-raise is not nearly as strong, as it would be with deeper stacks. Because of the sizing, Hero used, he can absolutely be check-jamming a hand like Q9 with the logic, that since he is not going to fold, and there is so little stack behind, then he might as well just get it in now. And on a wet board he will also be check-jamming draws, because draws dont want to call flop and then face a turn jam, they cant call.

So this is not a situation, where his aggressive action indicate a really strong hand and allow us to make a nit fold. And by the way this is also, why a smaller sizing is better. Because if we are C-betting with air, we would rather get called than jammed on, so that we get a chance to realise our equity. We cant really bluff with this C-bet sizing, unless our hand is so bad, that we dont mind folding it, if we get jammed on.

 

[fundiver199]

In this hand from a 16,5$ MTT on Stars the SPR was a bit deeper at around 4, and the check-jam came on the turn rather than the flop. This spot is a lot closer due to the deeper SPR and the fact, my opponent could easily have two pair or a straight here. However he did not have two pair or a straight, and while he had a lot of equity, I made the right call against his actual holding.

My point is just to illustrate, that yes an overpair is sometimes ahead, when the opponent check-jam either flop or turn with typical shallow tournament stacks of 20-30BB. So no its not an automatic fold, its situational. For the record I dont love my opponents line in this hand. Second pair has showdown value, and its tough to get better to fold, so I would just have check-called turn in his situation and then made a decision on the river.

CardsChat Poker Hands Converter

Convert your hand history into forum code, plain text or relive your hand and create animated replays

www.cardschat.com

 

[85champ07]

Very tough situation to be in. Almost going to be a call in my books 100% of the time. The preflop raise was good for value, but a larger bet would have won without the flop and showdown. The real issue is the loose caller with double your chips. They are willing to add the risk. Definitely unfortunate, but very common. Also hard to fold when your just at 20 BB. Another thing to consider was how the opponent was playing in previous hands and was he loose against shorter stacks. At the same time, I probably would have called too.

 

[puzzlefish]

This time the opponent did in fact have Q7, but that means, he also have Q3, Q4, Q5, Q6, Q8, Q9, QT QJ, A7, K7, Q7 and a lot of other hands, that he will likely also go with.

Isn't this erroneous thinking that you aren't necessarily a dog in this spot? I doubt villain would bet this way with just a top pair and a weak kicker.

 

[GoodmanAA]

Always KK Allin

 

[Andyreas]

Isn't this erroneous thinking that you aren't necessarily a dog in this spot? I doubt villain would bet this way with just a top pair and a weak kicker.

I see your point.

The problem is, quite often those chip leader play a very aggressive style and bring most pots down before the showdown this way.

I don't recall any reading about him anymore but I guess he has fallen into that category too.

Also a lot of people bet very high or call with top pair + solid kicker. So my best guess for his hand might be AQ, KQ or QJ even.

Always KK Allin

I know many play like this but I dislike this additional risk. You just need to get called by Ax and receive an A on the board.
If you do not go all-in, you can and should told against an A on the board.

 

[rock0001]

no.. i wouldnt fold becuase villain might have a hand like aq or kq in that spot or even a pair of jacks or tens. also you only had less than 20 bb left so this was a good spot to risk your stack.

 

[fundiver199]

Isn't this erroneous thinking that you aren't necessarily a dog in this spot? I doubt villain would bet this way with just a top pair and a weak kicker

I see that all the time. And what else is he supposed to do? Fold when he flopped top pair, because his opponent could have an overpair or have him outkicked? People, who limp-call hands like Q7s, dont think that way. For them any top pair is an absolute monster, which is why, we can get so much value from that kind of player in the long run.

 

[Jogo4]

the value of the chips you have is very important, your KK cards are excellent, but you tried to go all-in on an opponent who had twice as many chips as you. Even if you lost, he would have the same amount of chips as you. The risk for him, in this case, is low.

Try to understand who you're playing against, if it was Porky Throne (UTG): 3,023 (6 bb) (6 bb) he might fold out of fear of dropping out of the tournament.

In tournaments think as if you have a hierarchy, against who has a lot of chips, who has a few attack chips.

you lead as chips on the board your cards 2/5 only 2 opponents and on the board comes A 3 6 if you raise over an opponent who has few chips he will run even if he has a pair 77, 88,99, and so on, The amount of chips says a lot about the power you have, of course, table position, does too.

 

[sergiomatri]

Hey forum,

just wanted to get some feedback on this hand. Was my call correct and just bad luck or is an overpair not good enough to risk all of your stack, even on a rainbow board?

PokerStars, $2.94 + $0.36 - Hold'em No Limit - 250/500 (30 ante) - 8 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

Perky Throne (UTG): 3,023 (6 bb)
markinhus3 (UTG+1): 8,201 (16 bb)
Fet Fandango (MP): 13,879 (28 bb)
yolobasedgod (MP+1): 23,481 (47 bb)
AndyreasDE (CO): 11,657 (23 bb)
Ed Sato (BU): 22,271 (45 bb)
burky433 (SB): 6,632 (13 bb)
TigerHuang0922 (BB): 10,831 (22 bb)

Pre-Flop: (990) Hero (AndyreasDE) is CO with K♦ K♥
3 players fold, yolobasedgod (MP+1) calls 500, AndyreasDE (CO) raises to 2,000, 3 players fold, yolobasedgod (MP+1) calls 1,500

Flop: (4,990) 2♥ 7♣ Q♠ (2 players)
yolobasedgod (MP+1) checks, AndyreasDE (CO) bets 2,495, yolobasedgod (MP+1) raises to 21,451 (all-in), AndyreasDE (CO) calls 7,132 (all-in)

Turn: (24,244) 6♥ (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (24,244) 5♣ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: 24,244

Showdown:
yolobasedgod (MP+1) shows Q♦ 7♦ (two pair, Queens and Sevens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 16%, Flop: 75%, Turn: 82%, River: 100%)

AndyreasDE (CO) shows K♦ K♥ (a pair of Kings)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 84%, Flop: 25%, Turn: 18%, River: 0%)

yolobasedgod (MP+1) wins 24,244

I think that a situation similar to this has already happened to everyone, because it is a 2 dollar sng, I would also make this call, believing it to be a recreational player who hit the Q, but in other types of tournaments I would pay more attention to trips and Two Pairs