$3,30 NL HE MTT: How to handle excessive blind protection

[Andyreas]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

MTT

Buy-in

3,30

Currency

$

Hey forum,

I'd like to get some feedback here on this hand.

I've seen it quite a few times, that BBs shove against assumed "steals" from late positions.

The same happened when I had AQs on BN and BB had me covered. Would you call here? I did and my hand was 65/35 PF but still lost. Bugs me to risk my 20 BBs this way but I feel I cannot fold here. Do you agree?

And as an edit:
What do you think of this BB shove against stealers in general?

pokerstars, $2.94 + $0.36 - Hold'em No Limit - 250/500 (60 ante) - 7 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

Sn0wba11 (UTG): 5,388 (11 bb)
Caprari07 (MP): 17,062 (34 bb)
thales123456 (MP+1): 19,542 (39 bb)
BRT1234567 (CO): 8,702 (17 bb)
AndyreasDE (BU): 10,171 (20 bb)
Davidma133 (SB): 1,674 (3 bb)
EduardoHM90 (BB): 14,085 (28 bb)

Pre-Flop: (1,170) Hero (AndyreasDE) is BTN with A♥ Q♥
4 players fold, AndyreasDE (BU) raises to 1,250, 1 fold, EduardoHM90 (BB) 3-bets to 14,025 (all-in), AndyreasDE (BU) calls 8,861 (all-in)

Flop: (20,892) 4♥ K♥ J♠ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (20,892) 6♣ (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (20,892) 6♦ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: 20,892

Showdown:
EduardoHM90 (BB) shows K♠ J♣ (two pair, Kings and Jacks)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 35%, Flop: 59%, Turn: 75%, River: 100%)

AndyreasDE (BU) shows A♥ Q♥ (a pair of Sixes)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 65%, Flop: 41%, Turn: 25%, River: 0%)

EduardoHM90 (BB) wins 20,892

 

[Marshmalo1994]

Carefull: the following words were not written by an authorized profesional:

Without previous information and a 28BB all in I would have put him in a range of middle-high pocket pair, AKo probably, and against that range I think (didn't made the maths) your hand was behind.

What do you think of this BB shove against stealers in general?

I hate it. I think it's a weak way of playing if you have almost 30 BB. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see that is a good strategy risk 28BB to win 5 (specting the oponnent to fold). Any call will be made with a better hand that a KJo.

 

[theStarfish]

Without previous information and a 28BB all in I would have put him in a range of middle-high pocket pair, AKo probably, and against that range I think (didn't made the maths) your hand was behind.

I hate it. I think it's a weak way of playing if you have almost 30 BB. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see that is a good strategy risk 28BB to win 5 (specting the oponnent to fold). Any call will be made with a better hand that a KJo.

There is nothing more I can add, I agree completely.

 

[D0nk3y Hunt3r]

What do you think of this BB shove against stealers in general?

You think that BB thinks you are a stealer. That's deep. Maybe BB thinks you think BB thinks you are a stealer and this is just a trap, because reraise was large .

EduardoHM90 (BB) shows K♠ J♣ (two pair, Kings and Jacks)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 35%, Flop: 59%, Turn: 75%, River: 100%)

AndyreasDE (BU) shows A♥ Q♥ (a pair of Sixes)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 65%, Flop: 41%, Turn: 25%, River: 0%)

EduardoHM90 (BB) wins 20,892

He got you covered, I would rethink this AQ call, any pocket pair is ahead.

 

[fundiver199]

The hand is totally standard from both players. With 20BB we are going to end up in a "flip" soon anyway, and AQs is a totally fine hand to be flipping with especially in a late position configuration. KJo could also be defended as a call, but rejamming is certainly profitable, since he can get a lot of hands to fold. If for instance Hero had A5o rather than AQs, his bluff get through. Here he ran into the top of Heros range, and even then he still had equity and binked a suckout.

From Heros perspective I dont like open jamming from BTN for 20BB. We want BB to defend weak hands by calling and then play a small pot in position. AQs specially is also strong enough, that we are happy to induce a rejam. KJo is not the ideal hand for him to show up with, since he had two free cards, but he will also be rejamming a ton of hands, we dominate, like worse AX, KQ, QJs, QTs. So perfect line here by hero, just not a perfect runout.

To sum it up people need to stop worrying about hands like this. The whole point of a tournament is to make everyone but the winner go broke, so there is nothing wrong about busting from a tournament, as long as our decisions leeding up to the bust were solid. This is, how I just busted from a $7,5 hyperturbo. I could have 3-bet JJ, but by just flatting I induced a squeeze from someone, who only had 11% equity in the 3-way pot. That was a great result, even though he got lucky this time.

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[rock0001]

yes i agree. aq suited is a very strong preflop hand to fold in this spot. the shove from villain is questionable but reasonable considering that kj is a good preflop hand, and also he had a bigger stack and in case he flat calls he would have to act first postflop and thats a big disadvantage for him.

 

[dallam]

This is a really strong hand, which we ain't afraid to go all-in pre and making the maximum value from it ( we have 20bbs and sitting on Button, that's the spot we 've been waiting for).

>> When we are on the button, and SB is that tiny, we are almost guaranteed to see him / her 3bet shove. What is not the best for us is that this person has such a small amount of chips, that we're actually blocked to make a possible 4bet if BB just calls, so we may lost value on this or finding ourselves in a harder spot with remaining 17bbs, however we would be probably still good to continue.

>> SB in fact folded, and as BB jam on us, we get the perfect outcome, as we were not blind-stealing, we went for pure value, and we were able to get it on the easy way.
I'm really not sure to see you having weaker hands than KJo, as I mentioned you were prepared to SB's move, it cut your range to solid combinations which are not the best to put them on the pressure at all - even you left with just 18bbs, so not seeing a massive fold-equity here. In my eyes it made BB a cooler, for me the optimal move could be a call, and the flop would determine how to move on.

 

[eetenor]

Your study point seems to be on the mental game side of poker- What you are asking is- I did everything correctly and still lost- should I have played incorrectly instead?
This is very bad way to think- it causes us to make safe decisions not the best decisions-

As to BB shove- as you saw from many comments they were incorrectly ranging the BB shove and folding AQs wow that is tight- so if the BB suspects this of course they are shoving KJ which means we have to call
If you can get access to a 20bb GTO chart it will help you understand this spot better

 

[dallam]

This is a really strong hand, which we ain't afraid to go all-in pre and making the maximum value from it ( we have 20bbs and sitting on Button, that's the spot we 've been waiting for).

I actully wanted to say here that we don't have to be afraid to move all-in at all with this hand if someone is opening from an earlier position. Of course this situation was different cause noone made a move, and your open is fine, no need to shove with 20bb from Button, however obligatory to recieve BB's jam with AQs with a call.

As to BB shove- as you saw from many comments they were incorrectly ranging the BB shove and folding AQs wow that is tight- so if the BB suspects this of course they are shoving KJ which means we have to call

The main question left should KJo shove here, are we loose enough to open 2.5bbs to a possible SB shove and fold to a BB jam left us 17 / 18bbs? I'm maybe tight to say a call would be safer here from BB and not put 70% of the chips to the risk on this hand, when there's not a big fold-equity from us clearly, and even many times he is behind.

 

[spunka]

You come all in preflop and the numbers show you are ahead, so I do not see the problem, you will win that pot a lot of the time. (2 of 3 times)

" Showdown: EduardoHM90 (BB) shows K♠ J♣ (two pair, Kings and Jacks) (Equity - Pre-Flop: 35%, Flop: 59%, Turn: 75%, River: 100%) AndyreasDE (BU) shows A♥ Q♥ (a pair of Sixes) (Equity - Pre-Flop: 65%, Flop: 41%, Turn: 25%, River: 0%)"

If you do not want to "gamble" pre flop just call, then you can fold if Villan goes all in, and you can fold to a bad flop if he calls or raise small and you call.
(if you dont want to gamble keep the pot small)

But when you are 65% vs 35% in front you really want a raise, like the one you get (you do not want to have bad luck, but that is a part of the game) and it happends to us all, every day we play.

 

[Andyreas]

Thank you guys for all your feedback! Much appreciated as always. 🤗

What you are asking is- I did everything correctly and still lost- should I have played incorrectly instead?

I can see why you're interpreting this but that wasn't the intention of my post. If I were to complain about my favourite hand loosing, it choose the bad beats and vents section, which I also use from time to time. 😁

At first, I was a little surprised about his 28 BBs shove, since I considered that a little too deep, but I see my thinking error in the meantime:
His stack is not the relevant one, since he covers me, but my 20 BBs are. And I learned in the CC course, it's indeed valid to shove over a raise from late position if effective stack is less than 25 BBs.

I still consider it a semi-bluff of him but indeed I'd have folded most hands of the regular button range, so I can see why he did it.

 

[Andyreas]

Maybe it was clear to most of you already but I still put the BN range (based on CC course) as a range against his KJo and indeed, he's slightly ahead to the full button range.

I'm sharing the result for the interested reader as those examples help me to get a better understanding at least.

The more I think about it, the more his move makes sense to me but I'd still have a smaller rejam range from the blinds with 20 BBs effective stack. But I'll keep this example in mind for the future. 🤓

 

[eetenor]

I actully wanted to say here that we don't have to be afraid to move all-in at all with this hand if someone is opening from an earlier position. Of course this situation was different cause noone made a move, and your open is fine, no need to shove with 20bb from Button, however obligatory to recieve BB's jam with AQs with a call.

The main question left should KJo shove here, are we loose enough to open 2.5bbs to a possible SB shove and fold to a BB jam left us 17 / 18bbs? I'm maybe tight to say a call would be safer here from BB and not put 70% of the chips to the risk on this hand, when there's not a big fold-equity from us clearly, and even many times he is behind.

Thank you guys for all your feedback! Much appreciated as always. 🤗


I can see why you're interpreting this but that wasn't the intention of my post. If I were to complain about my favourite hand loosing, it choose the bad beats and vents section, which I also use from time to time. 😁

At first, I was a little surprised about his 28 BBs shove, since I considered that a little too deep, but I see my thinking error in the meantime:
His stack is not the relevant one, since he covers me, but my 20 BBs are. And I learned in the CC course, it's indeed valid to shove over a raise from late position if effective stack is less than 25 BBs.

I still consider it a semi-bluff of him but indeed I'd have folded most hands of the regular button range, so I can see why he did it.

Sorry I should have phrased this differently--- We want to be aware of the habit of wasting our study time on spots that are an emotional response to a loss not a true spot where we need to dive deeper--- As it was you realized that you want to be thinking about effective stacks so there was a skill gap for you that is good- but this spot itself AQS vs BB shove 20bb- calling in this spot is never a mistake as you saw from the ranges

 

[eetenor]

I actully wanted to say here that we don't have to be afraid to move all-in at all with this hand if someone is opening from an earlier position. Of course this situation was different cause noone made a move, and your open is fine, no need to shove with 20bb from Button, however obligatory to recieve BB's jam with AQs with a call.

The main question left should KJo shove here, are we loose enough to open 2.5bbs to a possible SB shove and fold to a BB jam left us 17 / 18bbs? I'm maybe tight to say a call would be safer here from BB and not put 70% of the chips to the risk on this hand, when there's not a big fold-equity from us clearly, and even many times he is behind.

Many GTO charts has KJoff as a call-KQ off a jam QJoff Jam---If the player pool is folding AQs and you node locked PIO for that outcome KJoff is always added in as a shove as is many many more hands

 

[AKQ]

expect this to happen alot
and Listen closely**

learn to Love it because it is a good spot AQs vs KJo( run it 1 million times you're a life long winner)

now if you still say frick that

check out these 2 conceptual ideas

Limp and if they are great preflop navigators they will have more checks preflop, wary that you are trapping instead of stealing


My secret to a shove shortstack opponent
Shove all in instead of raising 2.5bbs

 

[fundiver199]

As I said many times, ICMizer is an ideal tool to study push-fold spots like. Its $99 + VAT for a years subscription, or you can take advantage of the one daily calculation, they give everyone for free. I plugged your hand in selecting, that this was a 450-man "big" with 225 players left. That seem pretty fair, since the average stack of your table was around 10k chips, which is twice the starting stack. Assuming that BB play a pure push or fold strategy, these are the NASH equilibrium ranges for a 2,5BB Hero open and a BB shove:

* Hero is opening 43% of hands, which is basically anything remotely decent. 22, K3o and 98s are some of the best hands, that are folded.
* Villian is jamming 34% of hands, which is any pair, any ace, all broadways, most suited hands except those with a very low card and even some offsuit connectors like T9o and T8o.
* Hero is calling 17% of hands, which is 44+, A7+, A4s+, KJ+, KTs, QJs

Calling with AQs is +0,14% of the price pool for Hero, and by comparison calling AA is +0,33% of the price pool. So as everyone have said, this is just not a hand, we can fold, and the decision is not close. I will say though, that most people have a calling range in BB, so we should not take the NASH ranges as gospel, and against most microstakes opponents we should call less than 17% of hands.

But the hands, we can select to fold, are hands like the worst aces, the worst pairs and the broadways. A reasonable adjusted calling range could be 77+, AT+. In order to call any tigher than this, we need strong information from HUD-data, that this particular player is basically almost never 3-betting. Without such information we cant fold like 90% of our opening range, because that will allow every single regular to completely run us over.

 

[Andyreas]

Thank you, @fundiver199 for your detailed explanations, as always. 🙏

or you can take advantage of the one daily calculation, they give everyone for free.

I was doing that before but unfortunately they removed this option with the recent update. No free ICMizes anymore.
I know the software is great but I'm currently still evaluating the HUD options before looking into any additional software. Also I need the time to properly use the tools, otherwise the money will be wasted. 😶

I plugged your hand in selecting, that this was a 450-man "big" with 225 players left.

I'd have to look it up but it was a tad smaller, around 260 in total with around 70ish left, I think. I can look up the exact numbers, if important but I don't assume it will change the ranges much. Starting stack was 3k chips, so the average is around 3x the starting one.

A reasonable adjusted calling range could be 77+, AT+. In order to call any tigher than this, we need strong information from HUD-data, that this particular player is basically almost never 3-betting.

I'll keep this in mind for any upcoming situations that are similar. ☺️

 

[fundiver199]

Oh I did not know, that ICMizer removed the free calculations. In that case maybe you are better off using some other free software. There is a mention of this in the CC 30-day course, but I cant remember the name. ICMizer is admittedly a bit pricy for someone mainly playing microstakes MTTs. I just purchased it for another year, but I fell, this is justified, because I play a lot of turbo SnGs, and I play up to $25 games. So I really need to not make to many blunders against other regulars in the push-fold game.

If you were closer to the money (3k starting stack rather than 5k), that will increase risk aversion a little bit and make the ranges tighter. But its not a major effect, like we would see, if it was the final table. I also ran it in chip EV, and of course that makes the ranges wider. Heros opening range dont change much, but Hero is calling off even more, if he is only focused on accumulating chips.

Anyways the important is not to know the exact NASH ranges, but to get close enough and play in a way, thats not totally exploitable. On a site like PokerStars you also want to think about not showing up on peoples HUD as someone with a really high fold to 3-bet. This is certainly something, I look for and attack, and so do most other regulars. So calling 3-bets is also a long term investment in not getting 3-bet more than other players. But admittedly this is mostly a concern, if you play with the same people all the time. So maybe not so much in microstakes MTTs, where the player pool is so big.

 

[D0nk3y Hunt3r]

From Heros perspective I dont like open jamming from BTN for 20BB.

I mostly agree with your interpretation, though in this situation hero actually called jam from BB, jamming was BB, not BTN. If you meant open jamming from BB as too large I'm on the same rails. What I find a thing to reconsider is calling for whole stack in most-likely coin flip situation, even with such a strong holdings. Hero's risking busting out of tournament, after all, and AQ only promises equity at the river.

so there is nothing wrong about busting from a tournament, as long as our decisions leeding up to the bust were solid

This is true, when you are making tons of volume. I think I would think twice and maybe even fold if in wsop main event.

 

[D0nk3y Hunt3r]

Your study point seems to be on the mental game side of poker- What you are asking is- I did everything correctly and still lost- should I have played incorrectly instead?
This is very bad way to think- it causes us to make safe decisions not the best decisions-

Very good conclusion, though I'm also leaning into folding here. Why? Hero risks busting with strong holding which promises win based on equity but doesn't provide at this moment (preflop). Even against 100% villain range it's only 65%, which requires at least few tens of hands to get visibly ahead.

What you are saying is right from the equity point of view and makes profits long term, with shit of volume played.
By openjamming instead of reraising, for which BB had stack, BB showed strength (or brave stupidity based on bad assumptions, well, poker ), IMO. And, as, for example, DNegs suggests, it's better to assume that they have, then they have not.

 

[johnnylawford]

For what it's worth you can also use GTO Wizard for free to review general preflop ranges and responses. Here's GTO Wizard's all-in calling range against bb's 3-bet shove with 20bb effective stacks. You can also see the EV ratings of each hand in the bottom right of each cell:



as you can see AQs is a pure call as has been mentioned, you can also see that bb should be flatting KJo 100% of the time, so adding that to his shoving range only increases your hand's EV:



If you were close to or past the money bubble and had ICM considerations you might want to look at ICMizer or another tool to look at any risk premium to include, but from what you said it sounds like you were a ways from the bubble. The most important thing in hands like this is to avoid the results oriented thinking of 'I lost the hand' or 'I can find a better spot' and focus on the fact you made the correct play with the highest expected value preflop, which in the long run is what wins tournaments.

 

[D0nk3y Hunt3r]

You come all in preflop and the numbers show you are ahead, so I do not see the problem, you will win that pot a lot of the time. (2 of 3 times)

" Showdown: EduardoHM90 (BB) shows K♠ J♣ (two pair, Kings and Jacks) (Equity - Pre-Flop: 35%, Flop: 59%, Turn: 75%, River: 100%) AndyreasDE (BU) shows A♥ Q♥ (a pair of Sixes) (Equity - Pre-Flop: 65%, Flop: 41%, Turn: 25%, River: 0%)"

Guys, you need to remember, that this is for 100% villain range. In reality, villain has like 25-30% (?), and obviously not doing this with whole range. Let's assume, that this thing is being done with top half of the villains range, 12,5-15%, discarding bluffs, this is what you get:

	Player	Cards	Range	Win %	Tie %	Pot Odds
	Hero		0.3%	54.2%	6.7%	1:1.5	×
	Villain 1		15.5%	39.0%	6.7%	1.5:1	×

It's not like you are winning 3 out of 4 times .
Of course there is lot of assumptions here.

"The more I know the worse my results in capped MTTs are." Albert Einstein, "Theory of foldativity", volume 3/13

 

[RafaCastelo]

This is something i notice everywhere, from MTT to cash tables, protecting the big blind at any cost has become a kind of religion. Maybe we can try an alternative path here and ask: "What would make it look like we are NOT trying to steal the blinds?".....maybe it can sound a little naive, but sometimes the way you bet makes all the difference, betting slowly for example or even just slowly calling the BB.....the examples you give all along the game can also make your opponent "feel" you better, leading to an undertanding where he will intuitively not "assume" that you are stealing the blinds......anyway, its a very subjective theme......