$225 NLHE MTT: Shoot-Out format. Call All In w/TP, 2nd Kicker?

[Everybodylovesdeuces]

Played a shoot out last weekend where you have to win your table and then you are in the $. I'm going to guess on the stacks and blinds because I didn't write them down. MJ can add anything relevant I missed because she was sweating me.

We are down to 6 players. I had a big stack for most of the play but right before the last break I took a hit and doubled a ss w/TP v QQ. Now we are all ave about 16k except seats 9 and 6 (the one I doubled). I'm seat 4 on the button. Blinds are 100-600-1200.

UTG in seat 7 raises to 2400. Seat 9 calls, seat 1 calls, I look down at KQo. I call. SB folds, BB seat 6 looks at his cards, shrugs and calls.

Flop QdJc and some blank like 3h. I remember it's all rainbow. BB checks and UTG jams for about 12.5k. Seat 9 folds, seat 1 folds and it comes to me. BB is obviously about to muck his hand so I don't have to worry about him. I have villain covered by about 2k. My read is that he has a pair. Either a medium or big one and he doesn't want to get sucked out on. I guess a big draw like KT on AK is possible but I've noticed when someone insta jams like that it's usually an overpair. He could have AA, KK (although I have one of the Ks). Funny enough I think AQ, QJ or a set would have slow played a little more. 99, TT and AJ are def in his range. Also KQ.

Do you fold or call here? I only have 14k left if I fold. Blinds about about to go up to 200-800-1600. And I still have 5 more players to get though.

 

[WiZZiM]

Shove or fold preflop too short to be mucking around postflop. Leaning towards a shove but it really depends on opening range of utg..

As played ya call it off but its not ideal.

 

[S3mper]

Shove or fold preflop too short to be mucking around postflop. Leaning towards a shove but it really depends on opening range of utg..

As played ya call it off but its not ideal.

^^^ This is all you need to know

I'm going all in pre

 

[Everybodylovesdeuces]

I agree in a lot of situations I would jam pre and I did consider it but the following made me flat:

1. I'm in position

2. I feel I'm one of the better players at the table and while because the fast structure I know I will have to flip at some point I'd rather jam against one opponent than 5 because I'm for sure getting called by one of them

3. I still have enough left to play with if I whiff and there's lots of action and I have to fold.


But once I flat and hit the flop do you think I have to commit to call the all in?

 

[Everybodylovesdeuces]

Oh and to answer the question about the villain I had played with him a bunch the day before and he def had a looser opening range.

 

[WiZZiM]

Oh and to answer the question about the villain I had played with him a bunch the day before and he def had a looser opening range.

Then jam it in the 4k in the pot now is a great pickup. Or fold if you feel you have no fold equity and you dont dominate thier raise call range

It wouldnt matter if you are phil ivey flatting here is bad for two main reasons.

1. We are relying on hitting flops which this hand does. Our options are very limited postflop we hit flops around 30 percent of the time so we miss and give up 70 percent. And of that 30 percent we still can get it in and lose making that figure worse.

2. You are asking more bad players to flat or raise behind you. Limp folding here is a very big percentage of your wtack to be giving up. Playing in a multiway pot will mean of that 30 percent of the time you hit... you will be outdrawn or outflopped a much higher amount

 

[Everybodylovesdeuces]

Then jam it in the 4k in the pot now is a great pickup. Or fold if you feel you have no fold equity and you dont dominate thier raise call range

It wouldnt matter if you are phil ivey flatting here is bad for two main reasons.

1. We are relying on hitting flops which this hand does. Our options are very limited postflop we hit flops around 30 percent of the time so we miss and give up 70 percent. And of that 30 percent we still can get it in and lose making that figure worse.

2. You are asking more bad players to flat or raise behind you. Limp folding here is a very big percentage of your wtack to be giving up. Playing in a multiway pot will mean of that 30 percent of the time you hit... you will be outdrawn or outflopped a much higher amount

Agreed, that it's a large part of my dwindling stack and I probably should have just jammed it in to save myself the headache on the flop.

 

[duggs]

fist pump jam preflop, we have a meaningful overlay, capped ranges bar 1 and UTG is going to get squeezed out often enough. as played flop is redic but i think about folding.

fwiw if I'm not allowed to raise i prefer flatting over folding

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

This is not a limped pot, this is a min raised pot. If this was a limped pot I would 100% recommend jamming preflop.

Honestly I probably play it exactly like the OP did. or I Fold pre. I don't think I would jam here (And I'm a pretty shove happy player who likes to pick up dead money...but this spot seems like a good spot to jam with like T9s or AK, but not KQ, IMO).

But, forgetting the preflop action once we arrive at this flop I don't think we can fold. Why are we playing KQ if we are going to fold on a Q hi flop? If our read was that he had a monster pair preflop, then we should have folded preflop. If our read has all of a sudden changed upon seeing this flop that he has a monster overpair then we could just be playing scared poker and imagining monsters under the bed.

I think you have to call off and unfortunately sometimes he will show down AQ or better but you're often good here and there is a lot of dead money that's worth trying to pick up.

 

[duggs]

i don't really see a good reason for a discountinous jamming range? whats your rationale?

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

AK and T9s will likely be live or ahead. KQ is easily dominated by the likely calling hands.

 

[duggs]

I struggle to find a calling range that we do worse against with KQ than T9s especially given blockers etc

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

If the calling range is JJ+ and AK/AQ then T9s has 31% equity and KQo has 25% equity. Just an example.

My thought process here is basically that when I jam in spots like this it is a move, a bluff, a steal. It is not a value shove. I'm relying on Fold Equity to make the move profitable. In the unpleasant event that I am called I want a hand that is at least live. T9s is generally going to be live a lot more often vs typical calling ranges.

That's my take anyways.

Now, make it a limped pot and the whole equation changes because now we are essentially shoving for value since it is presumed that any large pairs or AK/AQ type hands would have raised. If they are trapping with KK or AK then good for them, they got me but otherwise we will be comfortably ahead or flipping with dead money when we are called.

The difference is, for me at least....value shove vs. steal.

 

[duggs]

That value range has 56 combos v T9s I think. Where are KQ blocks 10 of those combos. So we get called substantially less often. Further more T9s blocks parts of their folding range. It's kinda the same thing tho, there is so much dead money and UTG just can't call light at all and even if he calls there is a decent overlay.

As played it looks like a clearish fold

 

[the_wonk]

kind of gross. there's ~13k in the pot pre, so when he shoves all-in on the flop, it's only a single pot bet and you're generally going to be committed with a tpgk since you're getting around 2:1 (break-even = 33%).

with that said, in a 5 way pot vs an utg opener he shouldn't be pushing lighter than KQ himself.

as for whether you should jam preflop, it's also a close/gross spot imo, and depends completely on how you range UTG. if UTG is opening light (say something like 44+, JTs+, A8+) there's a ton of dead money in the pot and you have a hand that should have some fold equity, decent equity if called, and you should shove. if UTG is on a range more like 99+, AJ+ you're going to get called by almost his entire range and you're not going to have enough equity to warrant the shove.

**as an aside, this structure is essentially a winner take all tournament thru the first sng, so any positive equity gamble is warranted, just as in a cash game. also, was this in portland? i;m in portland.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

**as an aside, this structure is essentially a winner take all tournament thru the first sng, so any positive equity gamble is warranted, just as in a cash game. also, was this in portland? i;m in portland.

Pendleton.

but we both (myself and OP) live in the Portland area. Where do you usually play?

 

[the_wonk]

All over (encore/devil/ace of spades), but final table most lately (about to head over there). More cash than tourneys lately, but I've been a regular in the encore weekend tourneys for a few years too. I'm nick btw.