$225 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: 3 Bet LAG in position?

[Jacki Burkhart]

I'm putting this in hand analysis even though it is a general question about tourney situations that come up frequently....but I have 2 specific examples from this weekend.

In a nutshell, I'd like to know when you have a marginally strong hand like AQ or TT and a LAG opens if it is better to 3bet or take a flop in position?

Hand #1
This is a live 478 player Event. Most of the field remains (early in the day)

I have about 9,000 off a starting stack of 10,000. Blinds are 100/200 no antes yet.

A LAG is UTG and has about 15,000 chips and has been opening a lot of pots and defends his blinds a lot. He opens to 500 UTG. He's been playing about a third of all the pots but almost always from late position or the blinds. This is maybe only the 2nd or 3rd time I've seen him open from early position in the 2+ hours we've been playing.

It folds to my button I have

I consider 3betting, but figure I'm not doing too great against his early position range... so I elect to flat and take a flop. The blinds fold.

Pot contains: 1,300

Flop Comes

He looks as though he doesn't like the flop (the ace maybe?) hesitates a second then bets out 700.

Now what?

Hand #2
This is a live NLHE shootout (must win your table to progress to next round)
We were 10 handed, but I knocked a guy out so we are 9 handed. I have about 18,000 chips off of 10,000 starting stacks.

This LAG has about 15,000 chips and has been min raising about 30-40% of pots from all positions. He is very aggressive post flop just bets and bets and bets until people fold.

Blinds are 200/400 with a 50 ante and he min raises yet again, this time from mid position.

It folds to my button and I have

I briefly consider 3betting but a couple of things give me pause. Firstly, I have 3 bet him twice in the last 2 orbits...I had JJ and KK when I did it, but he doesn't know that so he could now suspect I'm 3betting light and he could 4bet me light and I'd probably have to fold which would be a shame to do with a hand with this much potential vs. his range. The other thing that makes me lean toward flatting is that I will have position, and if I connect with the flop he is very likely to just keep betting and keep betting so I'll be able to extract a lot of value.

thoughts on this?

 

[Everybodylovesdeuces]

I would flat with the TT. Go with your read and just call him down. Unless, he's the kind of player who will read your call as weak then maybe a small raise on the flop.

The second hand I love the flat w/AQ. Clearly your thinking about what's in your opponent's head. You are correct that no one wants to get 3 bet over and over so you are really likely to get 4 bet by hands as weak as KQ, AT and medium pairs. So I say why give up my position or get bet out by a worse hand? It's also early. No need to make monster pots yet with just AQ.

To answer the general question, you have already pointed it out yourself. It's dependent on the meta game going on. Sometimes 3 bet, sometimes flat. Always ask why am I making whichever specific action you choose and what you think it will achieve (and what will you do if the action doesn't go the way you planned).

 

[WiZZiM]

Flatting the tens and playing them mostly for set value but continuing on decent flops but never playing a huge pot without a huge hand.

Calling the flop unless I know hea aggro enough to double barrell our hand cannot take the heat of two barrels. So usually flatting hoping to check back turns a lot or protection bet on turn.

Fine flat with the aqs also. I think 3betting could be better considering our reads. But we have suited hand that is disguised somewhat which is always mice. So I think both are fine. You can make arguments to which is slightly better or slightly more profitable but you will likely find there isnt much in it.

Also dont do things like not 3betting bc he might suspect you are light and 4 bet you. It hasnt happened yet so theres nothing to adjust too.

 

[duggs]

Hand one seems fine, I just fold flop, hand 2 I'm fine with flatting pre or 3bet/5bet shoving

 

[HooDooKoo]

Hand 1: If villain is as laggy as you've described, I'm 3-betting villain in position with TT and c-betting most any flop. If villain calls this (Ac,8d,6h) particular flop, then I re-evaluate --- but I'm probably firing a second barrel because LAGs will often float c-bets on flops like this one.

Hand 2: First off, I completely agree with Wiz about not adjusting your 3-betting tendencies when there is nothing to adjust to yet.

As for the hand itself, I'm 3-betting AQdd on the button. IMO, your hand likely has a lot of equity against villain's range AND you're the big stack. You should be using your stack --- and your position --- to your advantage, especially against a LAG. I understand why you'd think you might extract more value if you hit the flop by flatting here, but that's a 1-in-3 proposition. What are you going to do if you whiff the flop?

In summary, I think that flatting LAGs is bad strategy. Most successful LAGs win due to very aggressive (hence the tag LAG) play, especially post-flop. I don't want to flat with TT (or AQ) and be forced to give up when the LAG double-barrels with air, so I take the initiative from them by 3-betting.

Good luck.

-HooDooKoo

 

[duggs]

Hand 1: If villain is as laggy as you've described, I'm 3-betting villain in position with TT and c-betting most any flop. If villain calls this (Ac,8d,6h) particular flop, then I re-evaluate --- but I'm probably firing a second barrel because LAGs will often float c-bets on flops like this one.



Hand 2: First off, I completely agree with Wiz about not adjusting your 3-betting tendencies when there is nothing to adjust to yet.



As for the hand itself, I'm 3-betting AQdd on the button. IMO, your hand likely has a lot of equity against villain's range AND you're the big stack. You should be using your stack --- and your position --- to your advantage, especially against a LAG. I understand why you'd think you might extract more value if you hit the flop by flatting here, but that's a 1-in-3 proposition. What are you going to do if you whiff the flop?



In summary, I think that flatting LAGs is bad strategy. Most successful LAGs win due to very aggressive (hence the tag LAG) play, especially post-flop. I don't want to flat with TT (or AQ) and be forced to give up when the LAG double-barrels with air, so I take the initiative from them by 3-betting.



Good luck.



-HooDooKoo

I'm not convinced we can 3bet for value comfortaly v a 10handed UTG range,

Why are we doubling? Seems a poor choice of hand if we expect them to be floating.

We can just bluff raise a lot of flops/turns or rivers if we really think he is tooling out that much

 

[duggs]

you should consider starting a thread so the hands are all contained in same place

i copy pasted this from an earlier post i wrote about exploiting opponent tendencies

Opponents Tendencies and how to exploit them:
Villain: Not opening enough
We: call less pre-flop, 3bet bluff less, slowplay less, call less postflop. adjustments are dynamic so adjust according to how much they vary from expected. if they barrel off a ton then slowplaying is good.

Villain: opening too much
We: 3bet bluff a lot more, call more preflop, slowplay more if they are too lag, call more postflop. if they are capable of 4bet bluffing then 3betting and shoving ranges should be depolarized valuey
early stages 3bets unlikely to get action so flatting is often best option

Villian: not 3betting enough
We: open more, fold to more of his 3bets, 4bet bluff less, 4bet for value with a stronger range, slow play less.

Villain: 3betting too much
We: open less, fold less to 3bets
4bet bluff more, 4bet for value wider range, slowplay more as they will attack stack

Villain: doesn't 4bet enough
We: 3bet more as a bluff
3bet with a stronger range for value
fold more to his 4bets
3bet wider range if he is raise/calling too wide a range as we will have position and initiative

Villain:4bet too much
We: 3bet less as a bluff
3bet with a weaker range for value (weak pair type hand 3bet with the intention to 5bet) negative ev 3bet made up for with 5bet.
fold less to his 4bets


Villian:3betting too narrow value range (flatting with value hands when he should be 3betting them not flatting 9s, 10s etc). this effectively increases ratio of bluffs to value hands.
We: 4bet with a stronger value range, (4bet/call rather than 4bet shoving as fold equity is so much stronger)
4bet bluff more, as 5bet bluffs are going to be so uncommon (noone 5bets air enough)
call 3bet more pre, narrower value range means we can stack them when deep.
bluff more postflop, they will get to there with a weaker range as they aren't 3betting weaker part of value range.doesn’t apply if they are stationy or super aggro
betting stronger range for value post flop (they will have a more polarized 3betting and flatting range. so unlikely to lose value since their bluffs fold anyway and their weaker value hands aren’t in range.
60bb stacks people don't 3bet for value unless they are willing to get it in (polarized range)

Villain:3betting with a wide value range
We: 4betting with a narrower range for value
4bet bluff less (less effective as more value in range than bluff)
call 3bet less preflop (higher ratio of strong to weak hands)
fold more postflop (more strong hands than air)
bluff less postflop (more hands that can hero)
value bet thinner postflop (less polarized range)


Villian: calling 3bets too light
We: 3bet bluff less (unless they fold a ton to cbets)
3bet a wider range for value (more equity than you normally would against his range)
bet flop more as their range is weaker (wider range means he is missing flop more and shouldn't be able to find float spots etc)
barrel turn and river more (getting to turn and river with a weaker range)
vbet thinner postflop ( will end up with more marginal hands to call with)(doesn't apply if they are folding flop a ton)
fold less postflop (weaker range, likely to have more weaker calls in their range)
slowplay more postflop (not as important, missing flop more often, can allow them to bluff of)(doesn't apply to stationy players)

Villain: folds to cbet too much
We: open more pre
cbet bluff more
slowplay more
fold to resistance more (check/raise)
fold more on future streets
bluff less on the turn/river
value bet narrower range on all streets

Villain: check raises cbet too much
We: open less
value bet a narrower range
call his c/r with weaker hands and fold less on future streets (assuming he continues to showdown with that weaker range) (dryer board narrows our range to very strong rather than draws)
cbet less with air (unless he folds a lot as he only c/r or folds)
3bet bluff flop more
slowly less

 

[dealio96]

Hand 1- If you're not going to 3bet preflop, at least flat the flop and see what he does on the turn. You would be playing 10-10 too passively if you just flat pre and fold the flop. Try mixing it up...If you're not going to flat, raise his LAG ass otf and see what he does.

Hand 2- 3bet pre without any worries of a light 4bet. If so....call his 4bet and take a flop in position. You have 18k chips with blinds at 200-400 and you're worried about calling a light 4bet??

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

Hand 1: .... I understand why you'd think you might extract more value if you hit the flop by flatting here, but that's a 1-in-3 proposition. What are you going to do if you whiff the flop?

In summary, I think that flatting LAGs is bad strategy. Most successful LAGs win due to very aggressive (hence the tag LAG) play...

As to what I will do if I whiff flop: I'll nearly always float a Cbet...that's why I would consider flatting a LAG in position.


As to flatting LAGs being poor strategy I disagree. I have great results taking lots of flops against LAGs in position, but usually with marginal hands that play well against their range. So I guess the heart of this question is really about the "top". Of my marginal hand range. When you could clearly 3bet for value but SHOULD you? It is certainly +EV but also extremely high variance. The LAG will either go away of you'll play a huge pot with a pretty good hand.

In both these examples we were early enough in play that there were still lots of other softer juicier targets...so I'm hesitant to take a high variance optional line against the hardest target at the table...

But maybe that hesitation is a leak...?

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

Hand 1- If you're not going to 3bet preflop, at least float the flop and see what he does on the turn. You would be playing 10-10 too passively if you just flat pre and fold the flop. Try mixing it up...If you're not going to float, raise his LAG ass otf and see what he does.

Yeah I'm never folding to his Cbet. Raise or flat was my thought process. I ended up flatting/floating planning to bet 2/3 pot if he checked the turn; but turn was a blank and he fired a pot sized bet. He has to put a lot of pairs and aces in my range and he seemed very comfortable betting; so he wasn't afraid of me having an ace. I figured I'm beat by the turn and let my hand go. I spent less than if I 3 bet preflop but in the off chance he had a monster I preserve my ability to set mine in position. But I also played it very weak...

Hand 2- 3bet pre without any worries of a light 4bet. If so....call his 4bet and take a flop in position. You have 18k chips with blinds at 200-400 and you're worried about calling a light 4bet??

I can definitely see the merits of 3betting pre. But I'm probably never flatting a 4bet as we are playing 37bb effective stacks. If I 3bet to 2,100 and he 4bets to 5,000ish that is 1/3 his chips. And more than a quarter of mine. He'll have 1 pot sized bet left if I flat and so he's basically committed. I 5bet jam or fold to his 4bet. And given the table is really soft besides this 1 guy (who I have position on). I probably fold.

 

[HooDooKoo]

I'm not convinced we can 3bet for value comfortably v a 10handed UTG range.

I see what you're saying here, but it seems to me that your statement is pretty villain dependent. In the case of a LAGgy villain, I think a 3-bet in position holding TT is a comfortable value 3-bet --- but that's just me. It does make post-flop play --- where competent LAGs are most dangerous --- difficult. I've had good success playing TT this way, but I'm mainly cash player and can just re-buy if I lose.

Why are we doubling? Seems a poor choice of hand if we expect them to be floating.

I think we're ahead of a LAG's range here and I have no trouble repping an ace against a LAG in this spot. In fact, I generally like to give them a dose of their own medicine. Once again, this play is easier in a cash game situation since I can rebuy and the "rep" I've given myself if I lose can be used to my advantage.

We can just bluff raise a lot of flops/turns or rivers if we really think he is tooling out that much

I'm fine with this approach as well.

Hand 1- If you're not going to 3bet preflop, at least flat the flop and see what he does on the turn. You would be playing 10-10 too passively if you just flat pre and fold the flop. Try mixing it up...If you're not going to flat, raise his LAG ass otf and see what he does.

Hand 2- 3bet pre without any worries of a light 4bet. If so....call his 4bet and take a flop in position. You have 18k chips with blinds at 200-400 and you're worried about calling a light 4bet??

For what it's worth, I agree with both of dealio's points here. Folding TT to a flop bet is weak. Unfortunately, the alternative isn't great. Calling a big second-barrel with TT is tough, and many LAGs will fire the second barrel with no hesitation --- especially in a tournament situation --- even with air, and unpair to your 10s, or 45. That's why I prefer to 3-bet pre and become the aggressor. If I get called on the flop, I can check back the turn and control the pot size if I choose.

And I agree that, with 18K, we don't have to be too worried about calling a light 4-bet (more on that later).

As to what I will do if I whiff flop: I'll nearly always float a Cbet...that's why I would consider flatting a LAG in position.

Understood, but I'd still rather 3-bet and "control" the post-flop action. That is just my preference.

As to flatting LAGs being poor strategy I disagree. I have great results taking lots of flops against LAGs in position, but usually with marginal hands that play well against their range. So I guess the heart of this question is really about the "top". Of my marginal hand range. When you could clearly 3bet for value but SHOULD you? It is certainly +EV but also extremely high variance. The LAG will either go away of you'll play a huge pot with a pretty good hand.

I get what you're saying here, too --- but I'm fine with playing a high variance style in tournaments. Tournaments, by their very nature, are high variance endeavors. I'd rather risk getting stacked early with the hopes that playing aggressively allows me to accumulate a ton of chips early, giving me the opportunity to play big-stack, bully poker. I hate being conservative and playing for four hours only to finish 15 spots from the money because I never accumulated a big stack, so my preference is to push early. I'm not saying that's the optimal play.

In both these examples we were early enough in play that there were still lots of other softer juicier targets...so I'm hesitant to take a high variance optional line against the hardest target at the table...

But maybe that hesitation is a leak...?

I don't know if your hesitation/conservatism in this spot is a leak or not. What I do know is that I would try and exploit the conservatism you've displayed here --- and that includes pot-betting a second barrel on the hand 1 flop you've described.

Yeah I'm never folding to his Cbet. Raise or flat was my thought process. I ended up flatting/floating planning to bet 2/3 pot if he checked the turn; but turn was a blank and he fired a pot sized bet. He has to put a lot of pairs and aces in my range and he seemed very comfortable betting; so he wasn't afraid of me having an ace. I figured I'm beat by the turn and let my hand go. I spent less than if I 3 bet preflop but in the off chance he had a monster I preserve my ability to set mine in position. But I also played it very weak...

You may well have been beaten here, so it may well have been a good fold. My only reservation is that playing the hand this way, we just never know. If you had taken control of the hand by 3-betting post-flop and c-betting the flop, then a call or raise on the turn (assuming that you bet said turn) would have made for an easy fold. Sure, there's STILL the chance that you were being bluffed, but the likelihood is much lower since you took the initiative and were responded to with that much aggression.

I can definitely see the merits of 3betting pre. But I'm probably never flatting a 4bet as we are playing 37bb effective stacks. If I 3bet to 2,100 and he 4bets to 5,000ish that is 1/3 his chips. And more than a quarter of mine. He'll have 1 pot sized bet left if I flat and so he's basically committed. I 5bet jam or fold to his 4bet. And given the table is really soft besides this 1 guy (who I have position on). I probably fold.

I don't think you need to 3-bet to 2100. 1500 is plenty, and I might go a bit lower than that (1350 or so). In that case, if you're being 4-bet light, I doubt villain makes it 5000ish. 3000ish is plenty, and gives you a much better indication of his range unless he's an aggrotard.

Additionally, I don't think you can be afraid that a guy that's min-opening 30-40% of hands at a full table suddenly has the top of his range when you're in the pot. Regardless, 3-betting him polarizes his range quite a bit and gives you a much better indication how to play this pot. Additionally, you show the LAG, regardless how he's bullying the rest of the table, that YOU won't be bullied. As a result, I prefer the 3-bet (for value) and metagame reasons.

Just keep in mind that all my observations are colored by the fact that I'm almost exclusively a HUSNG and cash-game player. Good tournament finishes require to much favorable randomness to appeal to me. I prefer to play games where, if randomness burns me, I can just reload and try again.

-HooDooKoo

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

In the AQ hand where we're talking about the 3bet size the LAG opened to 800 (a minraise of 400). I think 3betting to 1350 or 1500 is too small, although technically legal it looks very strange in tourney situations. Standard 3bet sizes are 2.5-3.0x the opening range and the 4bets and beyond tend to be 2.2-2.5x the size of the 3bet.

Either way I can understand the point about "don't adjust to something that hasn't happened yet". That is a very good point.

But what about the logic of 3betting with a strong hand that you'll probably fold to a 4bet? Is that ok? It seems like my 3bet bluffs I should fold and my value 3bets I should 5bet jam with...is that the right thought process?

 

[duggs]

why do we want to rep the A in a 3bet pot v a ep laggy r/c range? what better hands are we hoping to fold? we can't be value betting? this seems to fall clearly in our bluff catching range, especially if we expect floats.

 

[duggs]

In the AQ hand where we're talking about the 3bet size the LAG opened to 800 (a minraise of 400). I think 3betting to 1350 or 1500 is too small, although technically legal it looks very strange in tourney situations. Standard 3bet sizes are 2.5-3.0x the opening range and the 4bets and beyond tend to be 2.2-2.5x the size of the 3bet.

Either way I can understand the point about "don't adjust to something that hasn't happened yet". That is a very good point.

But what about the logic of 3betting with a strong hand that you'll probably fold to a 4bet? Is that ok? It seems like my 3bet bluffs I should fold and my value 3bets I should 5bet jam with...is that the right thought process?

well sort of. I'm not advocating 4bet/folding given reads fwiw. but it all depends on the frequency of being flatted. and how often he folds. its perfectly plausible that we can 3b for value and fold when an infrequent 4bet comes. i.e. against a 50/35/0/0 (vpip, pfr, 3b, 4b) it makes perfect sense to have an exploitable wide 3bet fold range including hands like AK/AQ/JJ/QQ et al. note I'm not saying thats the case but the blanket rule has exceptions is the point.

 

[duggs]

Hookoodoo I'm not arguing we shouldn't attack the lags weak ranges, I'm just arguing that by default i assume at least some positional awareness and post flop I'm going to float/bluffraise/thin value bet and raise a lot. but a WA/WB hand with 2 outs seems like a really really poor bluff candidate imo

 

[HooDooKoo]

In the AQ hand where we're talking about the 3bet size the LAG opened to 800 (a minraise of 400). I think 3betting to 1350 or 1500 is too small, although technically legal it looks very strange in tourney situations. Standard 3bet sizes are 2.5-3.0x the opening range and the 4bets and beyond tend to be 2.2-2.5x the size of the 3bet.

Either way I can understand the point about "don't adjust to something that hasn't happened yet". That is a very good point.

But what about the logic of 3betting with a strong hand that you'll probably fold to a 4bet? Is that ok? It seems like my 3bet bluffs I should fold and my value 3bets I should 5bet jam with...is that the right thought process?

My bad on the bet sizing. I confused hand one and hand two. I agree that 1350 or 1500 is too small a 3-bet for hand two. Your original assumption of a 3-bet size of 2100ish seems reasonable, which makes the 4-bet size of 5000ish reasonable.

In general, I think your thought process is correct. You should be folding 3-bet bluffs and 5-bet jamming with hands you 3-bet for value. Especially against a LAG, who is more likely to 4-bet light than other types of players.

Having said that, folding to a 4-bet isn't the end of the world --- especially if you've started with a relatively big stack. Like duggs, I'm not advocating 4-bet folding in this spot, either. I just don't think doing so is an utter disaster.

My preference is to attempt to generate fold equity with an in-position 3-bet, especially against a LAG. IF said LAG 4-bets me, I likely will show them some respect because even LAGs pick pick up monsters sometimes. In that situation, I likely flat the 4-bet and evaluate my hand on the flop. I'm obviously never just flatting the flop, though. I'm either raising the flop on a c-bet looking to get them all-in --- or folding (except in the very rare cases that we flop a flush, a boat, or quads).

-HooDooKoo

 

[HooDooKoo]

why do we want to rep the A in a 3bet pot v a ep laggy r/c range? what better hands are we hoping to fold? we can't be value betting? this seems to fall clearly in our bluff catching range, especially if we expect floats.

The only better hands we're hoping to fold are weak aces, and possibly jacks (but I seriously doubt that a LAG folds jacks in this spot).

Bluff catching is probably the better option unless you think you're playing a good enough LAG that he'll fold a stronger hand than TT in this spot.

Hookoodoo I'm not arguing we shouldn't attack the lags weak ranges, I'm just arguing that by default i assume at least some positional awareness and post flop I'm going to float/bluffraise/thin value bet and raise a lot. but a WA/WB hand with 2 outs seems like a really really poor bluff candidate imo

duggs, I don't think anyone is arguing at this point. We are just discussing.

Regardless, your point here --- as in the prior post --- is well taken. Pushing a WAWB behind hand with two outs (in the WB case) likely isn't the best use of our chips.

-HooDooKoo

 

[duggs]

don't take the phrase argument as aggressive or confrontational, i use it the same as i use discuss or debate

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

What is WA/WB?

Edit: Oh! Way ahead /way behind

 

[WiZZiM]

you should consider starting a thread so the hands are all contained in same place

i copy pasted this from an earlier post i wrote about exploiting opponent tendencies

Good stuff here:icon_sunn

 

[Four Dogs]

Hand 1: If villain is as laggy as you've described, I'm 3-betting villain in position with TT and c-betting most any flop. If villain calls this (Ac,8d,6h) particular flop, then I re-evaluate --- but I'm probably firing a second barrel because LAGs will often float c-bets on flops like this one.

Hand 2: First off, I completely agree with Wiz about not adjusting your 3-betting tendencies when there is nothing to adjust to yet.

As for the hand itself, I'm 3-betting AQdd on the button. IMO, your hand likely has a lot of equity against villain's range AND you're the big stack. You should be using your stack --- and your position --- to your advantage, especially against a LAG. I understand why you'd think you might extract more value if you hit the flop by flatting here, but that's a 1-in-3 proposition. What are you going to do if you whiff the flop?

In summary, I think that flatting LAGs is bad strategy. Most successful LAGs win due to very aggressive (hence the tag LAG) play, especially post-flop. I don't want to flat with TT (or AQ) and be forced to give up when the LAG double-barrels with air, so I take the initiative from them by 3-betting.

Good luck.

-HooDooKoo

^^^This