$215 NLHE MTT: Early Sunday Mill iso limper pot

[duggs]

got some really good feedback on the last few hands i posted,

few hands in, I late regged so only been in for 5 hands when this happened,
villian limped previous hand, blinds came along on A106ss board, he donked pot and then check folded turn to a half pot bet after being flatted by both on flop.
seemed like the typical 'bet bigger with air' and limp mid strength hand type player.

pokerstars - $200+$15|100/200 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.com

UTG: 10,975.00
UTG+1: 7,787.00
MP: 22,482.00
MP+1: 10,979.00
LP: 4,935.00
CO: 7,055.00
BTN: 12,600.00
SB: 17,256.00
Hero (BB): 10,000.00

SB posts SB 100.00, Hero posts BB 200.00

Pre Flop: (300.00) Hero has Td As

UTG calls 200.00, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 600.00, UTG calls 400.00

Flop: (1300.00, 2 players) 8c 7c 6h
Hero bets 650.00, UTG calls 650.00

Turn: (2600.00, 2 players) Ac
Hero bets 1,200.00, UTG raises to 2,800.00, Hero calls 1,600.00

River: (8200.00, 2 players) 6s
Hero checks, UTG bets 6,925.00 and is all-in, Hero calls 5,950.00 and is all-in

thoughts on my line?
thoughts on his line? I thought it looked really fos

 

[WhodeyX]

I think this guy had a 9 and was drawing to the straight. Not many people with the flush are going to re-raise you on the turn (would most likely see a flat call here since he is in position and he knows he will get action from you on the river). The river just pissed this guy off and he pushed. Gutsy call by you given the board but once that 6 dinged on the river I think you made the correct read here. I'd say that was a pretty good bet on this guy's part on the turn but once you called he was pretty much S.O.L.

I'm curious what he had at this point.

 

[ManicLombax]

Not many people with the flush are going to re-raise you on the turn

Not sure I agree with that. If he has the nut flush, then maybe. If he has a small flush, he might raise to protect it in case you have a bigger club. Even if he does have the nuts, it's a pretty small raise, so could just be he wants a call so he can push the river without it being an overbet.

He could also pretty easily have A6,A7,A8 and have just spiked two pair. Pretty bad to limp with that UTG, but then again pretty bad to limp UTG period.

 

[WhodeyX]

Not sure I agree with that. If he has the nut flush, then maybe. If he has a small flush, he might raise to protect it in case you have a bigger club. Even if he does have the nuts, it's a pretty small raise, so could just be he wants a call so he can push the river without it being an overbet.

He could also pretty easily have A6,A7,A8 and have just spiked two pair. Pretty bad to limp with that UTG, but then again pretty bad to limp UTG period.

You make some good points about the flush, I think that tends to come from my own preference. If I have a flush, I will typically try to extract maximum value, including taking the added risk of a 4th club hitting the board. I also will hardly ever be in a hand with your a-typical low flush (57s, 68s, 78s) because that would most definitely fall out of my range but we don't know how crazy this guy is.

I would probably rule out Ax at this point unless there is a good read on him playing these kinds of hands OOP. Five hands in you can probably make a decent assumption that that is not the case.

I'm still sticking with my guess that he had a busted open-ended straight draws. I have seen countless players tilt off their stacks within a single hand by betting the flush like the have it or calling down with their worse/busted draws through the river. A lot of times these deep pots will encourage some foolish and negative EV betting.

 

[baudib1]

If I have a flush, I will typically try to extract maximum value, including taking the added risk of a 4th club hitting the board.

How is it that you maximize value by not raising your value hands?

 

[WhodeyX]

How is it that you maximize value by not raising your value hands?

I think it is pretty self-explanatory. If you come over the top too aggressively on the turn you risk pushing the guy off. If you flat call on the turn there's a decent chance you can get another bet off of him on the river. Value is extracted by getting your opponent in this situation to put more chips in the pot, not a lot of value if the guy is folding in that spot when you come over the top

 

[ManicLombax]

Value is extracted by getting your opponent in this situation to put more chips in the pot, not a lot of value if the guy is folding in that spot when you come over the top

If you have a great hand, you should be trying to get all of your opponents chips, not just some of them. In this case, the turn raise is sized so that he can ship the river and have it be 3/4 pot. If he flats the turn again, shipping the river is nearly 2x pot. Hero has bet into him twice here, so a min-ish raise is going to get called a lot.

Edit: if you have a read that opp. is on a bluff and will 3-barrel the river but fold to the turn raise, I guess you can flat the turn. That's pretty rare though. Raising the turn for value is almost always better I think.

 

[WhodeyX]

If you have a great hand, you should be trying to get all of your opponents chips, not just some of them. In this case, the turn raise is sized so that he can ship the river and have it be 3/4 pot. If he flats the turn again, shipping the river is nearly 2x pot. Hero has bet into him twice here, so a min-ish raise is going to get called a lot.

Edit: if you have a read that opp. is on a bluff and will 3-barrel the river but fold to the turn raise, I guess you can flat the turn. That's pretty rare though. Raising the turn for value is almost always better I think.

We are getting fairly off-track here from the hand in discussion, but if I am playing this hand from the standpoint of the villain and I have position in this spot with a stronger flush, I think checking the turn is a completely valid play, especially with the hero firing in bets on the flop and turn.

Where we disagree is what do at the juncture after the hero has raised in that scenario. I think it is more based on preference, but going of my experience I will flat call here hoping to get a bet on the river. If he is weak, he is going to check down the river regardless. My point is that you aren't getting additional value by coming over the top with a weak raise a majority of the time. Unless the hero in this situation is sitting on a flush, hit his straight on the flop, or has a full house (all unlikely given the situation), he is most likely going to check down the river if you had come over the top. A flat call, more often then not, gives off the impression you are still trying to improve your hand. He could still check the river after a call here fearing the flush but I think you have a much better opportunity for him to throw in a big bet trying to bluff the pot or because he thinks your weak.

 

[BigThingWithHolesInIt]

I think calling the turn is fine, but the river pairing the board should put you in check/fold mode.
Not sure why we are so eager to put villain on a bluff, to me he seems the kind of loose passive player who tells it exactly like it is.

 

[Karkus77]

i am putting him on A7h, yes that specific, its just how i roll, and how bad i am at poker interesting hand though

as for your hand, the way it was played out, it looks as it was, AT/AJ/AQ, standard CB, spiked the A and carried on betting, not sure if i would have called the all in with no reads on the opponent

 

[MasterOfDisaster]

Wish I could late reg the SM and nice how everybody thinks about the hand.

No opinion here is probably the smartest thing I can do.

Just pay attention!

 

[duggs]

I think calling the turn is fine, but the river pairing the board should put you in check/fold mode.
Not sure why we are so eager to put villain on a bluff, to me he seems the kind of loose passive player who tells it exactly like it is.

why is the river a bad card for us, the only hands we know lose to that we werent before is 6x, if anything this is a nice safe river

 

[duggs]

just checking my thought process, given his previous play i thought that he had the ability to take this line with air, i saw absolutely no value in 3betting the turn as my hand has actual value. And if i am calling the turn, then check/calling river seems optimal although i expect him to give up sometimes aswell. does that make sense?

 

[jbbb]

I'm just checking pre. Raising makes it an awkward pot size on the flop, we're OOP and our hand is pretty trashy.

 

[duggs]

I'm just checking pre. Raising makes it an awkward pot size on the flop, we're OOP and our hand is pretty trashy.

Im isoing limpers wider than this,

 

[baudib1]

I think it is pretty self-explanatory. If you come over the top too aggressively on the turn you risk pushing the guy off. If you flat call on the turn there's a decent chance you can get another bet off of him on the river. Value is extracted by getting your opponent in this situation to put more chips in the pot, not a lot of value if the guy is folding in that spot when you come over the top

This is pretty damn fishy thinking tbh. If you don't come over the top you risk losing value.

 

[jbbb]

Im isoing limpers wider than this,

But you're not isolating. You're in the BB and there is no-one that has the option to come in behind you. Isolating is good because it gives you the initiative in position and stops a multi-way pot. If I was in position i'd isolate.

In this instance you'll be OOP, it's two-way whatever you do and your you'll be playing in a pot thats over 1/10th your stack size which is awkward with a weak, but also 'strong' hand like this (i.e. too weak to get stack in, too strong to easily fold when you flop a piece).

 

[duggs]

then its raising for value, plus he limp folds alot, and we take it down with a cbet enough