OzExorcist
Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Another new guy slips slowly away from the HA forum.Good job.
Van's point is a very important one though - we're better off not knowing the results.
J
jaded848
Rock Star
Silver Level
What if blind levels were 50/100 and he min-raised to 200? Can we reraise to 600? Can we flat?
The whole UTG min-raise is always interesting- the funny thing is, I'd think that as blinds got higher, we should be folding more. For example, if blinds were 100/200, and he min-raised to 400 with an 1800 stack, wouldn't it be MORE likely he has a monster, not less?
The whole UTG min-raise is always interesting- the funny thing is, I'd think that as blinds got higher, we should be folding more. For example, if blinds were 100/200, and he min-raised to 400 with an 1800 stack, wouldn't it be MORE likely he has a monster, not less?
vanquish
Legend
Silver Level
If the blinds were higher, we want to be folding less. If he min-raises to 400 with an ~1800 effective stack, there will be 800+ chips overlay on our raise (so we raise to +1400 after the 400 chip call). Thus, we need less equity in the pot, so our AQ becomes more of a monster (re: if he raises to 200 and has 1600 behind, we need more equity because the overlay is only ~400 chips, whereas with ~800 chips and 1400 behind, we don't need as much equity and should be jamming wider).
In sum, the more dead money there is in the middle (in most examples the blinds, or limpers who have folded, or guys that have a wide range and will most likely fold, but have yet to act), the less equity we need to have to justify our jam, and by extension the wider we can shove.
Trivial example:
-If the blinds are 1/2 and we have 2000 chips, the guy raises to 10 chips, we only get 23 chips of overlay if we jam (the blinds, the guy's bet, and our "call"), and we're jamming 2000 chips, so we're gonna want v. close to 50% equity, or more.
-If the blinds are 100/200 and we have 2000 chips, the guy raises to 600, we get 1500 chips of overlay if we jam (the blinds, the guy's bet and our "call"), so we can have < 33% equity in the hand (meaning we can have a wider range).
If you're concerned that the guy is opening really tight because of the high blinds, he's still not going to be opening tight enough for our jam with AQ to be -cEV if the blinds are that big.
Z
Zybomb
Rock Star
Silver Level
Just got back from Vegas hence the no post for a while --
Results were I tanked and eventually shoved, villain snapped with AA and I doubled him up
Thought the shove-fold was pretty EV neutral either way (bc of my thinking listed above). I also thought that since villain was a solid player he could have cute hands in his UTG opening range
Results were I tanked and eventually shoved, villain snapped with AA and I doubled him up
Thought the shove-fold was pretty EV neutral either way (bc of my thinking listed above). I also thought that since villain was a solid player he could have cute hands in his UTG opening range
c9h13no3
Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Wouldn't it be more the other way around?
vanquish
Legend
Silver Level
If villain was a cute player he could have solid hands in his UTG opening range?
robhimself
Rock Star
Silver Level
I like a shove here. We aren't in awful shape against his perceived range, 3 players need to go out before we get a pay jump, and getting 1st is a huge pay jump so the bias is strongly towards aggression. What he actually had is a bit irrelevant as you can't base a range off of what they actually end up shoving, many good players minraise rather than 2.2xing or whatever as it makes it cheaper to fold when blinds are big and small chip differences can equal decent sized equity differences.
Poker Orifice
FoolsTilt
Platinum Level
Not many players 'min-raise' from UTG with a stack size of ~9bb's (they'd be shoving the majority of their range... I'd think the 'min-raise' would be a small part of that... I would think AQo would only have ~30%eq. vs. villain's minrs. range in that spot (TT+, AKs, AKo)
robhimself
Rock Star
Silver Level
Knowing he is a very good player he is either representing huge strength or actually pretty strong, I agree. If the remaining players at the table had been reasonably tight though I would lean more towards him trying to represent strength, which obviously worked as he has everyone ITT trying to fold to an open with AQ for an 11 bb effective stack 6 handed. A player of that skill level is certainly capable of thinking above level 1 which is all the credit you are giving him thinking this open has to mean real strength.
Z
Zybomb
Rock Star
Silver Level
Like I previously mentioned Starting with a little over 11 BBs i figure a solid player only has 2 reasons to min raise rather than shove
1) Hes got a huge hand and hes trapping
2) Hes leaving himself room to fold
For #1 I think "huge" to be QQ+. TT-JJ would rather open shove than trap as would AK or AQ
From a risk to reward perspective if villain knows we fold hands as strong as AQ to his min raise, hes risking 320 - or 2 BBs out of 11 and change in his stack to win 240 or 1.5 BBs. How often are we gunna wake up with JJ+, AK? Certainly not close to often enough to make this a profitable play with ATC...
I think its very close between shoving and folding here -- and i dont think either one is wrong
One thing that seems to be getting forgotten slash is being ignored is that we cover villain. If we call and lose we still have 7.5 BBs in our stack and were the button the next hand
1) Hes got a huge hand and hes trapping
2) Hes leaving himself room to fold
For #1 I think "huge" to be QQ+. TT-JJ would rather open shove than trap as would AK or AQ
From a risk to reward perspective if villain knows we fold hands as strong as AQ to his min raise, hes risking 320 - or 2 BBs out of 11 and change in his stack to win 240 or 1.5 BBs. How often are we gunna wake up with JJ+, AK? Certainly not close to often enough to make this a profitable play with ATC...
I think its very close between shoving and folding here -- and i dont think either one is wrong
One thing that seems to be getting forgotten slash is being ignored is that we cover villain. If we call and lose we still have 7.5 BBs in our stack and were the button the next hand
J
jaded848
Rock Star
Silver Level
Bit confused by your wording here. If we aren't waking up with JJ+, AK often, then wouldn't this be a profitable play with ATC for the villain? Or did you mean "certainly not close to often enough, making this a profitable play with ATC" ?
Z
Zybomb
Rock Star
Silver Level
Yea bad use of commas. We certainly arent waking up with JJ+, AK often enough, thus making min raising a profitable play with ATC for villain if he knows well chuck hands a strong as AQ