$200 NLHE MTT Rebuy: AJs on the BUT when the pot is opened by UTG+1 and called by MP

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scubed

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$200 NLHE MTT Rebuy: AJs on the BUT when the pot is opened by UTG+1 and called by MP

Hero with AJs on the BUT is faced with a decision when UTG+1 opened and MP flatted the open. What should Hero do with AJs on the BUT in this scenario? The villains are NOT known and have only been playing together for about 10 hands.

Yatahay Network - 600/1200 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 54.7 BB
MP+1: 27.75 BB
CO: 40.82 BB
Hero (BTN): 34.52 BB
SB: 43.69 BB
BB: 61.68 BB
UTG: 55.59 BB
UTG+1: 32.87 BB

8 players post ante of 0.12 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.43 BB) Hero has A J

fold, UTG+1 raises to 2.25 BB, MP calls 2.25 BB, fold, fold, Hero?
 
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marvbake

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Call unless you know he's 2 betting wide, which then you'll 3 bet. In those 10 hands, how often has he 2 betted?
 
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scubed

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Call unless you know he's 2 betting wide, which then you'll 3 bet. In those 10 hands, how often has he 2 betted?
In 10 hands this is the first time he 2-bets. He has played no other hands, folded them all.
 
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fundiver199

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I think, it is one of those "Doug Polk spots", where neither play is terrible. We could call, but its not great, because we are dominated by much of an EP openers range, and likely BB will also call, so its going 4-ways. Or someone from the blinds will squeeze, in which case we have to fold. 3-betting take care of these issues, and there is dead money in the pot from the field caller. But we lose a decent chunk of our stack, if we get jammed on and have to fold. It feels very weak-tight, but because its an EP open, I actually dont hate just getting out of the way and look for a better spot.
 
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xrhstos

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With your stack size (34bb), if you decide to 3bet isolate, you invest at least 7bb which is 20% of your stack.
UTG+1 has a stack size where they can 4bet shove easily (32bb) with their better part of range and make you fold.
With that in mind, calling is safer and the high risk/high reward option is 3betting.
With no reads on UTG+1 getting out of line, I would call and see a flop, since you have the better position and a hand that plays well postflop.
 
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fundiver199

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In 10 hands this is the first time he 2-bets. He has played no other hands, folded them all.

We cant read anything into this over such a small sample.
 
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Brawo

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With your stack size (34bb), if you decide to 3bet isolate, you invest at least 7bb which is 20% of your stack.
UTG+1 has a stack size where they can 4bet shove easily (32bb) with their better part of range and make you fold.
With that in mind, calling is safer and the high risk/high reward option is 3betting.
With no reads on UTG+1 getting out of line, I would call and see a flop, since you have the better position and a hand that plays well postflop.

I think this opinion is quite meaningful, but a lot of times blinds will have great prize to call and you have there multiway often. AJo --> call, but AJs hmm call and bet is ok for me.
But low bet from UTG is suspecious. Scubed, you should ask yourself "If he would make shove, am I able to let it go?" If no --> call / If yes --> 3-bet, your are on the position, worth adding.
 
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scubed

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How it played out in the spoiler. I wondered if there was a way Hero could have played the scenario better.

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.43 BB) Hero has A J

fold, UTG+1 raises to 2.25 BB, MP calls 2.25 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, UTG+1 raises to 32.76 BB and is all-in, fold, Hero fold
 
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scubed

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Scubed, you should ask yourself "If he would make shove, am I able to let it go?" If no --> call / If yes --> 3-bet, your are on the position, worth adding.
Thank you for the words. This was exactly one of the questions I asked myself. The answer would be sigh-fold which is why I wondered if calling was better than 3-bet?
 
puzzlefish

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Just your usual trappy small 2bet to induce a 3bet and shove over it all, eh?
 
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scubed

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With your stack size (34bb), if you decide to 3bet isolate, you invest at least 7bb which is 20% of your stack.
Do you think a 3-bet of 7bb is better than 9bb? How do you think about the appropriate sizing when there is an EP open and a MP call?
 
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scubed

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Just your usual trappy small 2bet to induce a 3bet and shove over it all, eh?
HA! It worked. :D Should I default to thinking that this is the play V is making when I have no information?
 
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marvbake

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Can you provide some more info about why you think a flat call on the button is best move? THANKS!


Bro, how you going to ask such a simple question? Stop asking questions and read your posts thoroughly. If he isn't 2 betting wide, then he can have mostly premium hands in his range. Flat is the best option.
 
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scubed

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Bro, how you going to ask such a simple question? Stop asking questions and read your posts thoroughly. If he isn't 2 betting wide, then he can have mostly premium hands in his range. Flat is the best option.
Thank you - just trying to learn like everyone. In this case I had only seen the opponent for about 10 hands which isn't enough time to determine if he is 2-betting wide, that's why I have the query.
 
puzzlefish

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HA! It worked. :D Should I default to thinking that this is the play V is making when I have no information?
Unless you're seeing the player do this just about every hand, you can assume they have something strong if they are risking being re-raised with their lame bet.
 
Poker Orifice

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Unless you're seeing the player do this just about every hand, you can assume they have something strong if they are risking being re-raised with their lame bet.


What's 'lame' about their open? I don't understand.:hmmmm2:
 
puzzlefish

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What's 'lame' about their open? I don't understand.:hmmmm2:
If they were going to shove over a re-raise, then they opened conservatively on purpose with 2.25BB to make it look weak. It's a lame bet. You know, like the definition, unconvincingly feeble?
 
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Tinyman1104

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Close spot

I think the only mistake is to fold. I think AJo would be a better holding to 3bet/fold and the suited variety is excellent in calling. You just have to tread lightly if the pfr is showing a lot of aggression oop multiway when you hit top pair.
 
Poker Orifice

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If they were going to shove over a re-raise, then they opened conservatively on purpose with 2.25BB to make it look weak. It's a lame bet. You know, like the definition, unconvincingly feeble?


But it's a standard-sized bet .... not out of the ordinary. (maybe even a tad larger than many player's standard open sizing with stacks of this depth). Hence why I was wondering what was lame about it.
 
TheDude6622

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How it played out in the spoiler. I wondered if there was a way Hero could have played the scenario better.

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.43 BB) Hero has A J

fold, UTG+1 raises to 2.25 BB, MP calls 2.25 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, UTG+1 raises to 32.76 BB and is all-in, fold, Hero fold

So in this situation, my belief is that you have a strong holding. By strong, it's something you definitely want to see a flop with. When you have a raise and a call behind you, you could be facing AQ or better. You have to be able to see a flop for the 2.5 bb bet. Just remember, if you hit your ace on the board, still play cautiously. You don't want to get it in with just an ace against the initial raiser. That would leave us in a very tough position. IF you have a sole read on the player that's better however and know they have an under-pair, then we have to go with it to the flop and beyond if we hit our ace.

The raise to 9BB puts you out in the middle of nowhere with no info. You give your strength away to the shove and leaves you wondering where it went wrong.
 
0815am

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With your stack size (34bb), if you decide to 3bet isolate, you invest at least 7bb which is 20% of your stack.
UTG+1 has a stack size where they can 4bet shove easily (32bb) with their better part of range and make you fold.
With that in mind, calling is safer and the high risk/high reward option is 3betting.
With no reads on UTG+1 getting out of line, I would call and see a flop, since you have the better position and a hand that plays well postflop.

I agree with statements above. I would not 3B here. I also just call the hand and try to play tight on the flop, trying to potcontrol most hands.

You only will have invested a bit over 5% of your stack and seeing a flop with 4 people likely.
 
0815am

0815am

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With your stack size (34bb), if you decide to 3bet isolate, you invest at least 7bb which is 20% of your stack.
UTG+1 has a stack size where they can 4bet shove easily (32bb) with their better part of range and make you fold.
With that in mind, calling is safer and the high risk/high reward option is 3betting.
With no reads on UTG+1 getting out of line, I would call and see a flop, since you have the better position and a hand that plays well postflop.

I agree with statements above. I would not 3B here. I also just call the hand and try to play tight on the flop, trying to potcontrol most hands.

You only will have invested a bit over 5% of your stack and seeing a flop with 4 people likely.
 
Jon Poker

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I know this post is a few days old but here's my take.

In position with a hand that should play pretty well post flop I would flat the AJs. Suited Broadway combos tend to have alot of equity and by 3 betting we open ourselves to being jammed on in which case we might find the fold thus losing us our chance to see the flop with a stronger holding.

We don't want to value town ourselves against AK or AQ nor do we really love flipping vs hands like 99 or TT - 3 betting sets us up where we almost have to call any jams from our villan and I think in most cases we will be dominated or flipping.

So for myself - I would flat, play post flop and go from there. No need to get tricky - our hand should be relatively easy to play post, we either connect or we dont. If we dont, we give up 2.5bb and move on - if we do, we stand a chance of doubling up.
 
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