$2 NLHE STT Turbo: Very first hand- KQs, hit top pair on flop

[jaded848]

$2 NL HE STT Turbo: Very first hand- KQs, hit top pair on flop

Was a bit puzzled regarding how to play this. Should I have check-raised flop? Maybe donk-betted? The problem with these options is I wanted to see the turn cheaply, so I check/called for pot control. This looked alot like AK to me. I would have shoved on any spade turn card because it would have given me the extra outs in case he actually did have it, but as it stood I felt there was too much risk in going for it considering this was the very first hand of the sng and I'd have better chances later on. Was pretty tough to lay down though...

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 2.25 Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com
SB (t1500)
Hero (BB) (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
MP3 (t1500)
CO (t1500)
Button (t1500)
Hero's M: 33.33
Preflop: Hero is BB with Q

, K

2 folds, MP1 calls t30, 2 folds, CO bets t60, 2 folds, Hero calls t30, MP1 calls t30
Flop: (t195) 5

, 9

, K

(3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, CO bets t195, Hero calls t195, 1 fold
Turn: (t585) 2

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets t585, Hero folds
Total pot: t585

 

[Jillychemung]

I don't play the turbos and am nitty during the 1st levels of regular SNGs, so I would have folded pre-flop.

 

[WiZZiM]

the call is... err ok, if there was more people in it would be better, but im fine with calling here. you have a hand that plays real well postflop.

only thing i may change here is betting the turn, by betting the turn we accomplish two things. we decide how big the pot gets, and also we take control of the betting. the problem i think with checking is that it allows him to bet on his terms, he gets to decide how much to make it.

its also quite hard for the guy to reraise us without a hand. and since we just called on the flop, it may confuse him into calling with worse. he may just look us up with 10's jacks 8's those type hands. if he has like AK AA KK hes raising for sure then we can let our hand go. if he just flat calls, then its likely going to go check/check and we get to showdown. if he calls and he bets after our check, we can be pretty sure our hand is beat.

im not overly fussed about it though, check/folding is ok, but i like betting the turn to around 300 odd.

 

[jaded848]

the call is... err ok, if there was more people in it would be better, but im fine with calling here. you have a hand that plays real well postflop.

only thing i may change here is betting the turn, by betting the turn we accomplish two things. we decide how big the pot gets, and also we take control of the betting. the problem i think with checking is that it allows him to bet on his terms, he gets to decide how much to make it.

its also quite hard for the guy to reraise us without a hand. and since we just called on the flop, it may confuse him into calling with worse. he may just look us up with 10's jacks 8's those type hands. if he has like AK AA KK hes raising for sure then we can let our hand go. if he just flat calls, then its likely going to go check/check and we get to showdown. if he calls and he bets after our check, we can be pretty sure our hand is beat.

im not overly fussed about it though, check/folding is ok, but i like betting the turn to around 300 odd.

Do you think it's okay to make that move even if it would leave me with around 900 or so chips if I have to lay it down? What are your thoughts on a flop 1/2 pot donk bet and giving up if he reraises but firing another 1/2 pot on the turn if he calls? At least then I would have invested less chips...

 

[WiZZiM]

hey sorry, i was drunk when i wrote that, scrap what i wrote before, it has its merits but anyways... looking back over the hand..

Against an unknown at this level, even versus a tightish range (meaning like the worst hands he's cbetting with are A9 and KT), you have enough equity on this flop to go ahead and try to get it in. Of course, he'll show up with worse stuff like random low Kx, QJ, etc. and he'll be betting with some stuff he'll fold so there's even more value. Another thing that adds value is that this is the first hand and thus a random is going to be a lot more clowny.

i dont like donking as we lose value from hands mentioned above..

whats really baffling is calling the flop and folding the turn.. this doesnt really make too much sense at all..

 

[WiZZiM]

the call is... err ok, if there was more people in it would be better, but im fine with calling here. you have a hand that plays real well postflop.

only thing i may change here is betting the turn, by betting the turn we accomplish two things. we decide how big the pot gets, and also we take control of the betting. the problem i think with checking is that it allows him to bet on his terms, he gets to decide how much to make it.

its also quite hard for the guy to reraise us without a hand. and since we just called on the flop, it may confuse him into calling with worse. he may just look us up with 10's jacks 8's those type hands. if he has like AK AA KK hes raising for sure then we can let our hand go. if he just flat calls, then its likely going to go check/check and we get to showdown. if he calls and he bets after our check, we can be pretty sure our hand is beat.

im not overly fussed about it though, check/folding is ok, but i like betting the turn to around 300 odd.

sory about this, i must have misread the hand or something, this advice is horrible... yuck..

 

[Pascal-lf]

Bet flop, bet turn

 

[jaded848]

hey sorry, i was drunk when i wrote that, scrap what i wrote before, it has its merits but anyways... looking back over the hand..

Against an unknown at this level, even versus a tightish range (meaning like the worst hands he's cbetting with are A9 and KT), you have enough equity on this flop to go ahead and try to get it in. Of course, he'll show up with worse stuff like random low Kx, QJ, etc. and he'll be betting with some stuff he'll fold so there's even more value. Another thing that adds value is that this is the first hand and thus a random is going to be a lot more clowny.

i dont like donking as we lose value from hands mentioned above..

whats really baffling is calling the flop and folding the turn.. this doesnt really make too much sense at all..

The flop bet was small enough that I could call and still get away from the hand if I had to. I called because I saw it as WA/WB, and I wanted to keep the pot small- also, if a spade, Q, or K hit on the turn, I was getting it in. There was also a chance he was totally bluffing and would give it up on the turn- again, there was no way of knowing because I had zero reads on the guy.

I'm kinda surprised at your advice here. Since it's the very first hand and there are no reads, it will essentially boil down to luck (i.e. if he's a good player he would have AK or AA here, if he's a bad player he would have Kx low) if I shove. Whereas if I fold, I still have 1200 in chips and lots of time to still make a move.

I guess this was how I viewed it- if I'm better than he is, my chips are worth more, and it's not worth the risk. If I'm not better than he is, he probably has me beat already (could even have min-raised with aces preflop). So by folding I preserve the extra equity I have if I'm better than him, and I preserve all of my equity if he's better than me...

I don't know, I see your reasoning but I feel there are arguments both to folding and shoving.

 

[WiZZiM]

yes, since we have absolutely no reads, we kinda have to treat the guy as a random bad $2 player, and since he min raises after a limp, we can pretty much assume he's horrible, so essentially by observation we can rule out that hes a good player.. now some will argue that "oh he min raises, he must have a strong hand" well thats simply not true...

Unless you have some sort of read on the guy from a game earlier.. then postflop you cant just fold. pot control can be ok, but that sorta goes out the window when he pot bets it on the flop. so id just raise and get it in, like i mentioned earlier, we have a lot of equity vs and unknown, he could be literally spazzing with anything here..

early on, its good to be thinking about conserving your stack, but if you find a situation that you think your ahead in a lot of the time, you cant pass up an opportunity to nearly double your equity if he gets it in with us with worse, if he does happen to have us beat here, oh well, write a note on the guy and load another one.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Check/call flop, bet turn.
Villain's 'min-raise' preflop is obv. terrible bet-sizing but w/o reads who knows what they've got (could be AA KK, could be pretty much anything in a micro buyin).
Flop... why is villain betting 'pot' here? (in micros you'll see them with 99-JJ). Is villain really betting pot here with AA/AK?

Villain's goofy 'min-raise' pre would probably have me getting it ai on the turn cuz I suck. I'd probably fold pre though here & take note of wtf villain chooses to 'minraise' with. There's just so many spewy donks in the micros that it's usually better to wait it out in early levels imo.

 

[jaded848]

Check/call flop, bet turn.
Villain's 'min-raise' preflop is obv. terrible bet-sizing but w/o reads who knows what they've got (could be AA KK, could be pretty much anything in a micro buyin).
Flop... why is villain betting 'pot' here? (in micros you'll see them with 99-JJ). Is villain really betting pot here with AA/AK?

Villain's goofy 'min-raise' pre would probably have me getting it ai on the turn cuz I suck. I'd probably fold pre though here & take note of wtf villain chooses to 'minraise' with. There's just so many spewy donks in the micros that it's usually better to wait it out in early levels imo.

What's the point behind check/calling the flop then betting the turn? I feel like it sets us up to get raised a good percent of the time regardless of what he has, esp. when the 2 of clubs hits, which is an obvious blank. Unless you mean just shoving on the turn from the start?

 

[Grinder101]

Things I don't like:
The call preflop
The check and call on the flop
The fold on the turn

I wouldn't be surprised if your opponent double barreled you with AJ or K10
Remember passiveness is $$$'s down the toilet.

 

[WiZZiM]

What's the point behind check/calling the flop then betting the turn? I feel like it sets us up to get raised a good percent of the time regardless of what he has, esp. when the 2 of clubs hits, which is an obvious blank. Unless you mean just shoving on the turn from the start?

refer back to my original post when i was drunk about the advantages of betting the turn out of position. i do like raising the flop trying to get it in though, as mentioned he does this with a LOT of hands many of which were ahead of.

 

[WiZZiM]

Check/call flop, bet turn.
Villain's 'min-raise' preflop is obv. terrible bet-sizing but w/o reads who knows what they've got (could be AA KK, could be pretty much anything in a micro buyin).
Flop... why is villain betting 'pot' here? (in micros you'll see them with 99-JJ). Is villain really betting pot here with AA/AK?

Villain's goofy 'min-raise' pre would probably have me getting it ai on the turn cuz I suck. I'd probably fold pre though here & take note of wtf villain chooses to 'minraise' with. There's just so many spewy donks in the micros that it's usually better to wait it out in early levels imo.

i have a bit of a theory with these min raises i feel its either "the nuts", or its "nothing", however i think its weighted in the direction of nothing hands more so than nut hands. and yeah, you wouldnt want to be completing if your not happy playing in tricky postflop scenario's

 

[jaded848]

refer back to my original post when i was drunk about the advantages of betting the turn out of position. i do like raising the flop trying to get it in though, as mentioned he does this with a LOT of hands many of which were ahead of.

Ok, so the best line for this kind of hand would be check/raise flop then shove turn? What are your thoughts on donk betting the flop here, for same reasons as betting turn (to control pot and take control of the betting)?

 

[WiZZiM]

no, if he had a hand like pocket 10's hes going to cbet the flop, but if we bet it, he may just fold.. thus, we lose value by donking the flop.

either check/calling, bet turn, or check/raise flop are the two lines id take here..

 

[Pascal-lf]

Ok, so the best line for this kind of hand would be check/raise flop then shove turn? What are your thoughts on donk betting the flop here, for same reasons as betting turn (to control pot and take control of the betting)?

If you shove the only hand he's probably going to call you with is something better - it's the first hand of an SnG where you should be looking to sit tight for the first 3/4 levels.

Check raise the flop and then place a bet on the turn. I wouldn't be overly against you betting OOP on that board, it's pretty dry and you've got top pair.

IMO way to go would be to fold pre-flop and only play a very, very narrow range of hands for the first 2/3 levels.