$2 NLHE MTT: 77

[calicard]

This was the FT and the prize between 8th and first is quite a lot I did go on to win this tourney but what would you have done on this particular hand ?
kkrusnick013 was an extremely loose player and he was capable of raising with anything And I do mean anything.




No Limit Holdem Tournament • 8 Players • CakePoker

UTGGaussian23k
UTG+1Serg317093.4k
MP1kkrusnik01326k
MP2..JGALT..31k
COAlonzomozley9.4k
BTNHero26k
SBdeyby0076.7k
BB1OneChance18.0k

Blinds 1k/2k Ante 100

• 
  Pre-Flop (3.8k, 8 players) Hero is BTN
• 
  

2 folds, kkrusnik013 raises to 4k, 2 folds, Hero calls 4k, 2 folds

• 
  Flop (12k, 2 players)
• 
  
  

kkrusnik013 bets 5.9k,

Congratulations TunaPiano,

Out of 89 players in Tournament 10610834 ($2 NL Hold'em), you came in 1st and have won $46.29.

You've also been awarded 1.4 FPP for participating in the tournament.

Best wishes,
The Cake Poker Team

 

[BlueNowhere]

Shove pre, anything else is horrible. What was your plan OTF when you opted just to call?

 

[Pascal-lf]

shove pre

 

[Poker Orifice]

Shove pre, anything else is horrible.

this ^
'calling' here with these stacks is REALLY BAD.

 

[calicard]

Shove pre, anything else is horrible. What was your plan OTF when you opted just to call?

I really could not justify busting all in with 77 at this stage of the tournament. I was in good position to win this with my stack size. With 8th place paying $6 I did not want to win $4 after playing 2 hours. My thoughts were to catch a 7 or fold. After he bet 6k after flop it was obvious he was not tossing his hand. Really shove all in preflop with 77? What just flat laying down the 77 be an option?

 

[BlueNowhere]

If you're plan was to set mine it would've been more profitable to fold pre. You simply caan't set mine with these stacks. Flatting is not an option, call<<<<<<fold<<<<shove. Yes it an absolutely standard shove, even moreso against a LP raiser who can raise anything. If you hoped to win the maximum you need to shove pre. You had 12BB left, I don't know why you class that as a good position to be in to take it down when you're passing up insane edges.

 

[calicard]

If you're plan was to set mine it would've been more profitable to fold pre. You simply caan't set mine with these stacks. Flatting is not an option, call<<<<<<fold<<<<shove. Yes it an absolutely standard shove, even moreso against a LP raiser who can raise anything. If you hoped to win the maximum you need to shove pre. You had 12BB left, I don't know why you class that as a good position to be in to take it down when you're passing up insane edges.

I did take it down with patience and position bets. Plucking blinds and cautiously moving toward my goal. Moving all in with 77 to me would have been ridiculous after all I had worked for to finish 8th.
BTW It will be a long time before I complete 30 of those 25 centers so I just concede to you the win. I changed my signature and if you want I will change my avatar for 30 days.

 

[BlueNowhere]

I did take it down with patience and position bets. Plucking blinds and cautiously moving toward my goal. Moving all in with 77 to me would have been ridiculous after all I had worked for to finish 8th.
BTW It will be a long time before I complete 30 of those 25 centers so I just concede to you the win. I changed my signature and if you want I will change my avatar for 30 days.

Lol, I'm giving up on this thread. You have three decent players that are all better than you tell you the correct play. You won this one, yes. On average you might win $15 playing your way form this spot. If you shove this you might average $22. Where you finished is irrelevant in this one tourney.

 

[Poker Orifice]

kkrusnick013 was an extremely loose player and he was capable of raising with anything And I do mean anything.
/quote]
He's got a bunch of SS's he's raising into which he'll have to call if shoved on... but you figure he's still raising atc's here? If so, all the more reason to shove this pre... like WoW.. you may even have FE if you shove!! (even if you don't, this is a shove all day long ainc).

 

[calicard]

Shove with 77 would be stupid to a raise already preflop regardless if the player were a lag tag fish or pro. Fold would be smart, call might be stupid. But shove with 77 would be totally asking to be placed 8th.

 

[calicard]

Lol, I'm giving up on this thread. You have three decent players that are all better than you tell you the correct play. You won this one, yes. On average you might win $15 playing your way form this spot. If you shove this you might average $22. Where you finished is irrelevant in this one tourney.

What makes you think that after playing for three months that you are better than anyone. that alone to speaks for itself. I see you post all these posts with these abbreviations and other crap and you honestly believe that poker should be played as if on a production line. Stats say this stats say that. well my friend poker is a hand by hand battle. To put it all in a huge statistical math equation is total bullshit and if you want $10 come visit me on cake I will play you heads up. See where your statistical shove bs gets you against my play

 

[BlueNowhere]

What makes you think that after playing for three months that you are better than anyone. that alone to speaks for itself. I see you post all these posts with these abbreviations and other crap and you honestly believe that poker should be played as if on a production line. Stats say this stats say that. well my friend poker is a hand by hand battle. To put it all in a huge statistical math equation is total bullshit and if you want $10 come visit me on cake I will play you heads up. See where your statistical shove bs gets you against my play

Well let's estimate about 10% are up at online poker, I started playing in August, turned a profit by September and have been a winner ever since. That would put me in the top 10% of players. I've been a winner at every format of Hold 'Em. That's without ever reading a poker book and without any coaching. Of course I believe I'm a decent player and better than the majority of players. Of course poker should always be summed up with maths. I will after my exams, unfortunately for you HU is my strong point and you've chosen a game where you will get crushed.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Shove with 77 would be stupid to a raise already preflop regardless if the player were a lag tag fish or pro. Fold would be smart, call might be stupid. But shove with 77 would be totally asking to be placed 8th.

IF 77 isn't a shove here in this spot.... what is? (what range are you shoving here?)

&.. how would 'you' label a player who you see just 'call' here in this spot (say the positions were reversed, the hand somehow goes to showdown & you see that villain just 'called' in this spot pre w '77')... tag? lag? fish? pro? ... other?

 

[Poker Orifice]

if you want $10 come visit me on cake I will play you heads up. See where your statistical shove bs gets you against my play

unfortunately for you HU is my strong point and you've chosen a game where you will get crushed.

ha ha ha.. I love you two!!! :handkiss:
I'll add $5 to the prizepool if you advertise a time,... if you let me watch.

 

[duggs]

shove pre super standard, he will spazz fold so often, and he will likely call of with hands you are a massive favourite against eg. A6 A5 A4 A3 A2 22 33 44 55 66.
calling is gross especially to set mine when stacks are way way way too shallow.
folding is way too nitty for me

when the stacks are this shallow you have no room so saying skill edge is a factor is super wrong, noone has a big enough edge to turn down that shove .

 

[Pascal-lf]

Shove with 77 would be stupid to a raise already preflop regardless if the player were a lag tag fish or pro. Fold would be smart, call might be stupid. But shove with 77 would be totally asking to be placed 8th.

no it wouldn't. you've got no idea of effective stack sizes, you are far far too short to be calling pre when the board is going to be terrible for you 80% of the time.

What makes you think that after playing for three months that you are better than anyone. that alone to speaks for itself. I see you post all these posts with these abbreviations and other crap and you honestly believe that poker should be played as if on a production line. Stats say this stats say that. well my friend poker is a hand by hand battle. To put it all in a huge statistical math equation is total bullshit and if you want $10 come visit me on cake I will play you heads up. See where your statistical shove bs gets you against my play

nice big ego mate, stats give you reads which allow you to play differently against different players - if you take notes on every hand and condense those notes into numbers what have you got...oh yeah, stats.

 

[WiZZiM]

lol

 

[shinedown.45]

Again calicard? Are you seriously asking for more advice on a hand just to shoot down all the advice you are given here?

WHY ARE YOU HERE?

 

[calicard]

Again calicard? Are you seriously asking for more advice on a hand just to shoot down all the advice you are given here?

WHY ARE YOU HERE?

I'm not here to get told to shove all in with 77 on an 8 player table when there are several shorter stacks than I have and finish in 8th place. I'm definitely not here for that. If you look at BlueNowhere's advice in most situations it is SHOVE SHOVE SHOVE. Learn to play poker you wouldn't need to shove as much as you probably do. Taking all the skill out of the game and leaving your fate up to flops that you have no hope of controlling.The real question is why are you here. To tell players how to lose $1347 on stars and how to maintain a negative ROI. Or are you just here to give players terrible advice to SHOVE SHOVE SHOVE with any two cards and hope and pray they win. That is just terrible terrible advice especially in this situation FT with 8 players left 26,000 in chips 3 players are going to be forced to shove next round. And you tell me to shove against a player that can eliminate me and place me 8th for a $2 profit. Your advice to SHOVE SHOVE SHOVE here is quite possibly the worst piece of advice possible and I dam sure hope any player that is just starting out trying to learn the game doesn't take any of your advice at all with that stupidity.Here is a tier list of hand values and Statistics based on real play with their associated actual value in real bets. Tell me where the heck 77 says risk it all on the FT to an already raised pot.

77 4 A9s, AJ, QTs, KQ, 77, JTs 0.19 - 0.15



1 AA, AKs, KK, QQ, JJ
2 AK, AQs, AJs, KQs, TT
3 AQ, ATs, KJs, QJs, JTs, 99
4 AJ, KQ, KTs, QTs, J9s, T9s, 98s, 88
5 A9s...A2s, KJ, QJ, JT, Q9s, T8s, 97s, 87s, 77, 76s, 66
6 AT, KT, QT, J8s, 86s, 75s, 65s, 55, 54s
7 K9s...K2s, Q8s, J9, T9, T7s, 98, 64s, 53s, 44, 43s, 33, 22
8 A9, K9, Q9, J8, J7s, T8, 96s, 87, 85s, 76, 74s, 65, 54, 42s, 32s

 

[duggs]

logic like this is why bubbles and final tables are easier to play than the rest of the tournament

also number of chips is irrelevant, number of BB is how you measure your stack

 

[doomasiggy]

I'm not here to get told to shove all in with 77 on an 8 player table when there are several shorter stacks than I have and finish in 8th place. I'm definitely not here for that. If you look at BlueNowhere's advice in most situations it is SHOVE SHOVE SHOVE. Learn to play poker you wouldn't need to shove as much as you probably do. Taking all the skill out of the game and leaving your fate up to flops that you have no hope of controlling.The real question is why are you here. To give players terrible advice to SHOVE SHOVE SHOVE with any two cards and hope and pray they win.

It's not any two cards.

I'm not going to pretend like I'm a brilliant poker player, I'm not, but this is pretty basic poker maths.

You had 13 bigs. Someone raised to 4k which means that if you call you're down to 9 bigs. That's a huge gap. That kind of stack size it's easy to get blinded out, or be forced into a situation where you need to shove with marginal hands, A7, J9 etc.

You were raised by someone with a similar stack size, which means that it's quite easy for them to have AK, AQ, AJ or even a lower pair, 66-22. Against a large part of his range you're flipping, against a decent amount of his range you're the 5 to 1 favourite. In this situation, if you feel that 77's are a good hand you should shove and take the opportunity to double up, because if he calls behind and misses the flop you're pretty much golden.

Whereas, even if he misses the flop, say he's holding 66's and he c-bets, it's nearly impossible to tell what he has if there's a face card on the board, which means you might end up folding the better hand because you called instead of shoved. Hell, it's nearly impossible to tell what he has if there are overcards.

Let's say the flop had come 10 6 8. Thats two overcards, if he c-bets here with ak, you'd be the favourite but you'd have no way to know because he might also have a10, k10, q10, pocket 88's, or even T8s. So again, you'd fold the best hand.

Or let's say the flop had come 6 5 2. Great, you think, I've got the overpair, so you shove here, he calls and shows pocket two's. That's a hand he likely would've folded had you shoved pre.

You had pocket 77's. It's unlikely you'll make a straight or a flush. It's also unlikely that you would've hit a set, since there were only two cards in the deck that could've improved your hand. And you only had 13 bigs. Shoving here is not a bad decision.

That is just terrible terrible advice especially in this situation FT with 8 players left 26,000 in chips 3 players are going to be forced to shove next round. And you tell me to shove against a player that can eliminate me and place me 8th for a $2 profit. Your advice to SHOVE SHOVE SHOVE here is quite possibly the worst piece of advice possible and I dam sure hope any player that is just starting out trying to learn the game doesn't take any of your advice at all with that stupidity.Here is a tier list of hand values and Statistics based on real play with their associated actual value in real bets. Tell me where the heck 77 says risk it all on the FT to an already raised pot.

77 4 A9s, AJ, QTs, KQ, 77, JTs 0.19 - 0.15



1 AA, AKs, KK, QQ, JJ
2 AK, AQs, AJs, KQs, TT
3 AQ, ATs, KJs, QJs, JTs, 99
4 AJ, KQ, KTs, QTs, J9s, T9s, 98s, 88
5 A9s...A2s, KJ, QJ, JT, Q9s, T8s, 97s, 87s, 77, 76s, 66
6 AT, KT, QT, J8s, 86s, 75s, 65s, 55, 54s
7 K9s...K2s, Q8s, J9, T9, T7s, 98, 64s, 53s, 44, 43s, 33, 22
8 A9, K9, Q9, J8, J7s, T8, 96s, 87, 85s, 76, 74s, 65, 54, 42s, 32s

So? Those hand rankings only apply preflop, as I've said, if he raised with Ak/ AKs/ AQs/ AJs/ KQs/ T9s/ 98s/ A9s..A2s/ KJ/ QJ/ JT and a shitload of other hands on that list and misses the flop that means the chances of your winning jump dramatically. As for the whole: $2.00 profit thing, well, the point is that you want to maximise your profit margin. The way to do that isn't to play really tight and hope you climb up the rankings, it's to make the right decision for each hand and then hope you win more times than you lose; because even if you make the right decision, variance still means that you will lose some of the time.

 

[calicard]

It's not any two cards.

I'm not going to pretend like I'm a brilliant poker player, I'm not, but this is pretty basic poker maths.

You had 13 bigs. Someone raised to 4k which means that if you call you're down to 9 bigs. That's a huge gap. That kind of stack size it's easy to get blinded out, or be forced into a situation where you need to shove with marginal hands, A7, J9 etc.

You were raised by someone with a similar stack size, which means that it's quite easy for them to have AK, AQ, AJ or even a lower pair, 66-22. Against a large part of his range you're flipping, against a decent amount of his range you're the 5 to 1 favourite. In this situation, if you feel that 77's are a good hand you should shove and take the opportunity to double up, because if he calls behind and misses the flop you're pretty much golden.

Whereas, even if he misses the flop, say he's holding 66's and he c-bets, it's nearly impossible to tell what he has if there's a face card on the board, which means you might end up folding the better hand because you called instead of shoved. Hell, it's nearly impossible to tell what he has if there are overcards.

Let's say the flop had come 10 6 8. Thats two overcards, if he c-bets here with ak, you'd be the favourite but you'd have no way to know because he might also have a10, k10, q10, pocket 88's, or even T8s. So again, you'd fold the best hand.

Or let's say the flop had come 6 5 2. Great, you think, I've got the overpair, so you shove here, he calls and shows pocket two's. That's a hand he likely would've folded had you shoved pre.

You had pocket 77's. It's unlikely you'll make a straight or a flush. It's also unlikely that you would've hit a set, since there were only two cards in the deck that could've improved your hand. And you only had 13 bigs. Shoving here is not a bad decision.



So? Those hand rankings only apply preflop, as I've said, if he raised with Ak/ AKs/ AQs/ AJs/ KQs/ T9s/ 98s/ A9s..A2s/ KJ/ QJ/ JT and a shitload of other hands on that list and misses the flop that means the chances of your winning jump dramatically. As for the whole: $2.00 profit thing, well, the point is that you want to maximise your profit margin. The way to do that isn't to play really tight and hope you climb up the rankings, it's to make the right decision for each hand and then hope you win more times than you lose; because even if you make the right decision, variance still means that you will lose some of the time.

I'm not saying a call fold after flop was smart. The best thing to do here In my opinion is just to fold outright.The reason being there were two very short stacks behind me. They could have easily shoved there last 4,000 chips in at which point. I would be forced to toss my hand had the original raiser reraised or just called for that matter. It was a very stupid call but it would not be as stupid as shoving. I was doing fine in chips compared to the rest of the table. I had no reason to be in that hand period.

 

[calicard]

logic like this is why bubbles and final tables are easier to play than the rest of the tournament

also number of chips is irrelevant, number of BB is how you measure your stack

Chips big blinds makes no difference if you can add and read you can figure it out there were players with 1 BB left to make a move here would be shear stupidity. If you look at my position on the table and the stack sizes there was no possible reason for gambling at this point with 77

 

[calicard]

It's not any two cards.

I'm not going to pretend like I'm a brilliant poker player, I'm not, but this is pretty basic poker maths.

You had 13 bigs. Someone raised to 4k which means that if you call you're down to 9 bigs. That's a huge gap. That kind of stack size it's easy to get blinded out, or be forced into a situation where you need to shove with marginal hands, A7, J9 etc.

You were raised by someone with a similar stack size, which means that it's quite easy for them to have AK, AQ, AJ or even a lower pair, 66-22. Against a large part of his range you're flipping, against a decent amount of his range you're the 5 to 1 favourite. In this situation, if you feel that 77's are a good hand you should shove and take the opportunity to double up, because if he calls behind and misses the flop you're pretty much golden.

Whereas, even if he misses the flop, say he's holding 66's and he c-bets, it's nearly impossible to tell what he has if there's a face card on the board, which means you might end up folding the better hand because you called instead of shoved. Hell, it's nearly impossible to tell what he has if there are overcards.

Let's say the flop had come 10 6 8. Thats two overcards, if he c-bets here with ak, you'd be the favourite but you'd have no way to know because he might also have a10, k10, q10, pocket 88's, or even T8s. So again, you'd fold the best hand.

Or let's say the flop had come 6 5 2. Great, you think, I've got the overpair, so you shove here, he calls and shows pocket two's. That's a hand he likely would've folded had you shoved pre.

You had pocket 77's. It's unlikely you'll make a straight or a flush. It's also unlikely that you would've hit a set, since there were only two cards in the deck that could've improved your hand. And you only had 13 bigs. Shoving here is not a bad decision.



So? Those hand rankings only apply preflop, as I've said, if he raised with Ak/ AKs/ AQs/ AJs/ KQs/ T9s/ 98s/ A9s..A2s/ KJ/ QJ/ JT and a shitload of other hands on that list and misses the flop that means the chances of your winning jump dramatically. As for the whole: $2.00 profit thing, well, the point is that you want to maximise your profit margin. The way to do that isn't to play really tight and hope you climb up the rankings, it's to make the right decision for each hand and then hope you win more times than you lose; because even if you make the right decision, variance still means that you will lose some of the time.

You are right and I had a conversation with him before I tossed my hand. After he bet the flop I stated. "I have you beat but you are such a donk you will call with whatever you have hoping to suck out." Then I waited and tossed and showed my 77. That move right there helped me win this MTT after that if I raised players dropped. I stole my way to a huge chip lead. with out once having to go to a showdwn till the last player.

 

[titan72offsuit]

"kkrusnick013 was an extremely loose player and he was capable of raising with anything And I do mean anything."

Why was he playing like this? Because of the rest of the table not shoving hands like 77 with 13 BB left.