$2.50 NLHE MTT: 180 man turbo, pre flop.

[BlueNowhere]

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, 2.5 Tournament, 100/200 Blinds (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (BB) (t2010)
UTG (t2745)
UTG+1 (t1250)
MP1 (t1080)
MP2 (t2570)
MP3 (t5580)
CO (t2251)
Button (t2502)
SB (t5440)

Hero's M: 6.70

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3

, 7

6 folds, Button bets t400, 1 fold

Hero?

 

[BlueNowhere]

Readless as well, just been moved tables.

 

[jbbb]

eeeeeeeerrrrrrr......?

 

[BlueNowhere]

I want to know if I can shove profitably, if not how wide can I shove?

 

[ManicLombax]

Someone else with software would have to do the math. My sense is that against a total unknown I wouldn't be re-shoving any two. Later if we have a read that he's opening 50% on the button and calling much more narrowly, then shoving probably becomes good.

 

[Pascal-lf]

his stack is too short to be r/f that often so your range should be tighter. even so, i doubt i'm reshoving this in a $2 very regularly at all. i guess like A7o+, Axs, KTs+, QJ, and stuff like J9s, QTs if there were antes I'd shove wider but without antes you don't have to panic too much yet

 

[RamdeeBen]

I think I'd just fold. Obviously, he is never folding to a shove so you have zero FE and it isn't going to play very well vs his range unless he has 2,3 4,5 etc which is highly unlikely. I just fold and find a slightly better spot.

I don't mind reshoving with something that has some show down value, like 6,7s+

 

[ManicLombax]

Obviously, he is never folding to a shove so you have zero FE.

I don't think that's obvious. Explain why he's never folding? He put in 400, he has to call 1600 to win 2500 in the pot. I think 10BB is still a reasonable re-shove stack.

 

[BigThingWithHolesInIt]

Obviously, he is never folding to a shove

Huh? How so?

 

[RamdeeBen]

I don't think that's obvious. Explain why he's never folding? He put in 400, he has to call 1600 to win 2500 in the pot. I think 10BB is still a reasonable re-shove stack.

Well, he's shockingly bad if he is going to open up with 10blinds and fold to a shove..which table are these players at that fold with 8blinds left behind them after putting in nearly a 1/4 of his stack to then fold it?

It's NEVER EVER a reasonable play to open 1/4 of a your stack nearly to then fold to a shove with 10blinds left, especially in this turbo 180 format.

A reasonable reshove stack has to be at least 15blinds, preferably 20blinds imo.

Huh? How so?

This is a 180MTT...not a STT on the bubble, you should never be open folding 10 blinds on the button or any position for that matter, (unless your shit) < in which case this is great to have them at a table.

If you know they are that bad where they would fold after opening then shoving any two cards is good here but in most cases people are always calling of a shove in this BB shove over the top as we always have to bare in mind how wide the BB is shoving..(prime example in blues case, ATC)




180man,turbo,10blinds left both players. button opens and BB shoves over. You REALLY folding here if BB shoves? lol < < Imo if you do then, you shouldn't be in the 180man turbo games and if you are then you're only doing your winrate damage by silly plays like that. You may as well just fold to start with if you if you're going to do that.

 

[ManicLombax]

Well, he's shockingly bad if he is going to open up with 10blinds and fold to a shove

Putting in 1/5 of the effective stack and then folding wouldn't be shockingly bad in my opinion. If we were talking 1/3 stack then yeah, that's bad. I guess it's kind of close, but still not horrible. I'm probably just going to be open shoving if I'm going to play the hand on the button with these stacks, but I wouldn't be blown away if this guy folded to a re-shove.

 

[BlueNowhere]

Well, he's shockingly bad if he is going to open up with 10blinds and fold to a shove..which table are these players at that fold with 8blinds left behind them after putting in nearly a 1/4 of his stack to then fold it?





This is a 180MTT...not a STT on the bubble, you should never be open folding 10 blinds on the button or any position for that matter, (unless your shit) < in which case this is great to have them at a table.

If you know they are that bad where they would fold after opening then shoving any two cards is good here but in most cases people are always calling of a shove in this BB shove over the top as we always have to bare in mind how wide the BB is shoving..(prime example in blues case, ATC)




180man,turbo,10blinds left both players. button opens and BB shoves over. You REALLY folding here if BB shoves? lol < < Imo if you do then, you shouldn't be in the 180man turbo games and if you are then you're only doing your winrate damage by silly plays like that.

I think he is opening far wider than you seem to think and is going to struggle to call a shove with a decent amount of his range. This is a turbo structure so he is relatively deep enough to fold to a shove.

In fact I think your a mile off the mark if you think most players don't have a r/f range from the button. He only needs a fold like 43% of time. If both you and the sb only shove the top 15% of hands or w/e he can print money with ATC unless you start widening your range. In my experience people tend to shove way too tight a range so I can just rely on the general population keeping my range balanced when I am relatively unknown to villians.

 

[BigThingWithHolesInIt]

I think you're giving a bit too much credit to the general chip management at these stakes. If this is indeed not a steal there is little point in playing back with anything but the strongest hands. But I think against a lot of players here this is going to be a leak.
Still wouldn't repop with 73s, but with broadways, decent aces and pocket pairs I'm getting it in and expecting him to fold a fair amount of the time.

 

[RamdeeBen]

Putting in 1/5 of the effective stack and then folding wouldn't be shockingly bad in my opinion. If we were talking 1/3 stack then yeah, that's bad. I guess it's kind of close, but still not horrible in my opinion. I'm probably just going to be open shoving if I'm going to play the hand on the button with these stacks, but I wouldn't be blown away if this guy folded to a re-shove.

With the dead money, it is..

He's giving the guy a 50% increase in his stack by open/folding his 10blinds..on the button to a BB reshove.

Yeah, I'm just shoving from the button here in most cases and min raising monsters only if I expect to get shoved on by a wide BB who thinks he has some FE.

I'd be amazed and marking this guy as the most profitable player at the table if he is open/folding 10blinds from the button to a BB shove, I rarely see this happen in these games, not sure where you guys see this? The only time I'd ever see this is maybe on the bubble and even then, that's weak play. You see this play more in a STT bubble than in a MTT turbo 180 format like this.

 

[RamdeeBen]

I think he is opening far wider than you seem to think and is going to struggle to call a shove with a decent amount of his range. This is a turbo structure so he is relatively deep enough to fold to a shove.

In fact I think your a mile off the mark if you think most players don't have a r/f range from the button. He only needs a fold like 43% of time. If both you and the sb only shove the top 15% of hands or w/e he can print money with ATC unless you start widening your range. In my experience people tend to shove way too tight a range so I can just rely on the general population keeping my range balanced when I am relatively unknown to villians.

I disagree.

If you're opening from the button with 10 blinds left wide then folding to an even wider BB shove is terrible to give him a 50% increase. Why not just fold to start with if that is what villian is going to do? At this format, if you do this, you're crippled and nearly dead, blinds most likely will of gone up by the time they reach you again and you will be stuck with like 3 blinds and absolutely no FE.

I just don't see where you find these players who do this play? I hardly EVER see them fold doing this..


By the way..a min raise from the button like this is usually quite a decent hand from my experience and "wants" to get re shoved on, usually the shoves from the button are much wider than a min raise that's why I don't think buttons are folding very often here to a BB shove .even if the button is min raising wide it's still a bad fold imo in these 180 turbo games.

 

[BlueNowhere]

I disagree.

If you're opening from the button with 10 blinds left wide then folding to an even wider BB shove is terrible to give him a 50% increase. Why not just fold to start with if that is what villian is going to do? At this format, if you do this, you're crippled and nearly dead, blinds most likely will of gone up by the time they reach you again and you will be stuck with like 3 blinds and absolutely no FE.

I just don't see where you find these players who do this play? I hardly EVER see them fold doing this..


By the way..a min raise from the button like this is usually quite a decent hand from my experience and "wants" to get re shoved on, usually the shoves from the button are much wider than a min raise that's why I don't think buttons are folding very often here to a BB shove .even if the button is min raising wide it's still a bad fold imo in these 180 turbo games.

Because villian can print money by doing this wide. Yea some of the time he loses some of his stack but there is definitely an incetive to do this for him.

I raise super wide from the button and I get so many folds I can justify doing it with like 100% of my range at this stack depth.

I think I'd make a lot more money at poker if i didn't feel the need to get creative with hands like this and just play ABC against simple players lol. The second I see someone do something like this I assume they are making a play at me because that is what I do if I am in that spot and I know I'd hate a shove so I shove thinking they can't call a shove, then they snap call and turn over AA, gg.

 

[Pascal-lf]

BTN has 12bb, r/f here without antes in play seems pretty bad. doing this with 100% of your range, 12bb and no antes is definitely spew. if there are antes in play and both blinds seem poor (too tight) then it doesn't seem so bad, but against regs who will 3bet shove wide and adapt quickly to you raising short it would be terrible. even against bad players, without antes there just isn't enough of a pot to win to justify losing fold equity, especially as even fish these days know people steal wide in LP

 

[WiZZiM]

generally speaking, you really want hands that play well when called. Like 87s or something, as they are rarely dominated and they can hit multiple flops. 73s isn't really good enough to really think about doing much, unless we have reads.

Also, we really need reads to do things with this stack depth. That's in relation to the button raiser, we need some sort of read here. If he's a bad new player he may raise/fold a lot, if he's a decent player, he will be rarely ever folding as an example.

 

[Karkus77]

i'd fold, but then i am a nit

 

[baudib1]

I disagree that BTN is calling 100%, problem is we run into the top of his range a lot when he minraises here. Resteal suited broadways, small pps.

 

[RamdeeBen]

I disagree that BTN is calling 100%, problem is we run into the top of his range a lot when he minraises here. Resteal suited broadways, small pps.

Maybe not 100% but pretty close.

Besides which, that is my point a min raise from a 10 or 12 blind stack on the button is usually like you say top of his range so it's as close to 100% as you're going to get to people snap calling of the shove from the BB.


Either way though..I think I just fold to this min raise and don't mind getting my chips in with any suited connectors/broadways etc and expect to be called nearly everytime but know we're not much of a dog in most cases anyways as they play good in gneeral.

I see gthese min raise/folds in STT's...just not in 180 MTT turbos..seems crazy consdiering how wide you should be shipping in these anyways to be open folding buttons so passively with 12 blinds.

 

[BlueNowhere]

I guess I just way overestimated my FE in this spot then.

 

[WiZZiM]

broadways arn't as good as SC's or PP's ram. you get dominated a lot more.