This is a discussion on $2.2 NLHE MTT: call or fold? within the online poker forums, in the Tournament Hand Analysis section; PokerStars, $1.96 + $0.24 - Hold'em No Limit - 125/250 (30 ante) - 8 players
hitachi27 (UTG): 8,399 (34 bb)
vena2307 (UTG+1): 6,548 (26 bb)
Evelio11 (MP): 11,630
On BTN I would never fold QJo to limpers, but I prefer to isolate them to cut down on the number of players seeing a flop. Limping behind does have some merits though, since isolating to something like 5BB will commit a lot of chips with fairly shallow stacks.
Betting with top pair is of course standard, but full pot is way to big. It pretty much force them to only continue, when they have something very strong. This is a very dry board, so something like 35-40% pot works much better.
Normally betting here again would be fine, but when you bet so much on the flop, you already condensed his range a lot, and when you bet full pot again, what do you even expect him to continue with, that you still beat? Like exactly J9? You are overplaying your hand, and when he check-jam, I actually think, you have a fairly easy fold. You have shown massive strenght postflop, and yet he still wants to play for all your chips. This is rarely going to be a bluff, and its also not a hand for value, which you beat. The hands, I would put him on, are 66, 22, JT, maybe occationally AJ/KJ.
Not at all surpriced, that he flopped a set. This was actually the main type of hand, I put him on, as the action went down. It makes sense for him to limp behind preflop with a small pair, whereas a hand like AJ/KJ would be more likely to isolate the limper. Also makes a lot of sense to slowplay a set on such a dry board, whereas top pair would be more likely to bet for a bit of protection.
If you had bumped it up to 5BB preflop, maybe he actually fold and dont go for the setmine. And if you had kept your bets much smaller, you give yourself a chance to get away, when he raise you. So while top pair against a set is a bit of a cooler, there were ways for you to avoid this or to not lose your whole stack.
I would play the same limping, maybe even the open bet on flop, but after it is check/fold for me. Top pair without A kicker, in a 4 way flop, you rarely win it on this flop. I can't even put him on straight draw, only any pairs, sets or J with higher kicker, maybe J10.
Never isolate UTG limpers with QJ, often they wait for that and re-raise, unless i don't have at least 2 pairs on any streets, i never force the allin, especially not without A kicker...
it is not about you lost vs. a set, that's okay - especially with 2 pairs, not so much with 1 pair without kicker - it is about the plenty AJ, KJ, J10 cards out there, what all beat you, too...
You pot bet on Flop where i would have gone for a smaller sizing for pot control - bearing in mind his position and that in my mind he could be calling with AJ/KJ or set mining - a smaller bet sizing may have still elicited a call but he may have elected to reraise which again then gives you more information - i would not have jammed all my chips in when the 10 dropped as he has opened himself out even further to possibly having 222/666/101010 or a better jack.
__________________ Pirateglenn AR AR AR ..A legendary Pirate :)
Maybe I missed something but:
He played like in school... call with low pair, hit trips on flop... and slowplayed you.. when he paid your raise, didnt you ask yourself why he is paying you ? There is no flush or straight, you have top pair.. that was good raise..
When he reraised you without any nuts on board he obviosly has smtg...
Since he was covering you in stack you might think its a bluff, of course but it was a shove for you and just call for him cause he had more chips....
I remember I made a huge step when I managed to drop my top pair !
Next time will be better !
Stay healthy !
Life is like a gamble, just roll the dice and take the best of it.....
Your continuing to telegraph your hand strength to your opponents. Additionally when they call your incorrect POT sized bets - they are TELLING you they have a strong hand as well, so you are not recognizing what your opponent is telling you when they call your bet. And I count no less than 10 hands that are crushing you in this hand on the flop, even more on the turn.
POT size bet on flop is a mistake. Not recognizing your opponent is telling you something by calling your bet is mistake number 2. 2nd barrel POT size bet on the turn is the 3rd mistake - everything that happens after is 4th & 5th and 6th mistake.
This is one of those hands that we can really learn from, to eliminate (reduce) mistakes in our game.
Is this - bet POT on flop with top pair standard practice in the player pool?
Put another way - does the majority of players in your player pool use this tactic?