$150 NLHE MTT: TPTK played it scared, but how to extract?

[Jacki Burkhart]

This is a 81 player live MTT. about 40 players remain, 9 paid.

Blinds are 300/600 with a 100 ante so starting pot is 1,800

I am 2nd in chips at the table with 50,000. so I have 83bbs and my M=27
Average stack is about 40,000.

This is an extremely limpy table. Multiple limpers into most pots. I have also observed that when 1 player makes a good sized raise to fold out the limpers it doesn't really work, maybe 1 of them will fold and the rest will call like a 4 or 5 bb raise.

So, UTG limps (he has been limping about 30-40% of hands)

UTG+2 is a tight aggressive player that I'm familiar with. He raises to 2,500. His entire stack is about 25,000.

in MP1 I look down at and I immediately decide I will 3bet to try and isolate the raiser. I want to be in position against this player heads up so I want to 3bet fairly large to keep out the crum-bums and shoe-clerks. (I stole that from Norman Chad). I also want to 3bet an amount that let's the raiser know I'm pot committed if he jams.

I decide to raise to 11,000.

It folds to the Button, he is the only player at the table who has me covered he has 56,000. I don't have a great read on him yet. He has been playing a fair amount of hands but seems to play well and whenever there is a showdown he has a pretty reasonable hand. He tanks, and then flats. WHOA! that scares me. What a strong action! I'm putting this flatting range at TT+ and AK. possibly 99? I also think it is unlikely that he has AA or KK with KK being the least likely holding.

Folds back to UTG+2 who tank folds.

Heads up to the flop and the pot contains 26,900. I have 39,000 left behind.

Flop comes
Yuck. I hate that flop. I mean, it has an Ace at leat but AQ and AJ just sucked out. AA was always ahead and now is farther ahead, and QQ and JJ just made a set. I figure out of his likely flatting range I am really only beating KK and TT and chopping with AK.

I decide that KK, TT, and 99 will probably just fold if I bet out here, so I decide to check and see what he does.

To my surprise, he checks as well. I breathe a tiny sigh of relief.

The turn is

I get this feeling like I should bet here, but I have this other weird feeling like if I bet I can't get called by a worse hand. Also, if I bet out and he jams I'll pretty much be pot committed and have to call. I decide this player is aggressive, so if I check the turn there is no way he's going to let me check to him twice, and he'll bet out some of his hands that I can beat, and then I can call. So....I check.....and he checks....

The river is the potentially a runner runner heart draw just got there. Otherwise nothing has changed.

At this point, I know I've played the hand poorly, failing to extract but I also can't figure out what the hell he has. I decide to use my hand as a bluff catcher since it is under-repped. So, I check with the intention of calling a 40-60% pot bet.

But....he checks behind.

I am embarrassed to show my hand because I played it so weakly. He mucks his and I take the pot.

OK...I know I didn't play that hand optimally. If I had been in position this whole hand would have gone down differently, but as it was it was a pretty pathetic performance. Here is my question: where should I have tried to extract value? How much should I have bet, on which street, and why?

 

[BigThingWithHolesInIt]

I definitely like checking the flop, and thinking about it some more, this turn card didn't leave a lot of hands we beat that villain would call a bet with. Just TT and AT, really. There is also still a fair chance that he's slowplaying something (simply because the flop hits his range so hard). So going for the check/call on the turn isn't a bad play as far as I'm concerned.

After villain checks back the turn I think you can throw out a tiny thin value bet, like 6k, and fold if he raises.

 

[WiZZiM]

I think your preflop 3bet puts you in the akward spot post...

I make it like 6 to 7k which gives more breating room post.. obviously its a limpy table but when it goes raise re raise the table will generally know so you still get to isolate but with a better spr post. I havent played live in years so if this isnt the case then I guess rasing large is fine.

I like how you played it. But I bet river here small as his range is super weak at this point kk at best.. so an amount anything with showdown value will be tempted to call. If he hasnt fired the turn its not likely hes gonna fire river.. I bet like 4 to 5k on the river and hope for a curiousity call from something with showdown value.

I dont think theres much point in betting turn other than to just end the hand. But since you had a read hea aggro I think checking is better.

Overall a wa/wb spot I think you played it fine

 

[duggs]

tbh i don't mind post flop at all, i would give him a weaker range pre flop than you have, something like 77-QQ AJs+ AQo+. i just don't see how we can get value given he has no JT/QK etc which we need to extract value from, same time not sure i can check and fold the turn but flop i think x/see what happens is best way to go,

side note, not a fan of pre flop sizing as whizz said, also not a fan of the logic of letting him know we aren't folding, its expensive and kinda pointless imo

 

[duggs]

river I'm wanting to x/c just because he should sometimes turn those under pairs into bluffs, or retard bet something mid strength

 

[dealio96]

Think you should be 3 betting to around 7k here pre. Also, you are not pot committed preflop by only putting 10% of your stack out there( I don't understand why you would want to pot commit yourself in a tournament with 100bbs and ace high). Also, if btn 4bets... are your intentions to stack off?

I would've liked to see a flop cbet, but I don't mind the check being oop with a scary board that hits his range in such a hard way. I think we should definitely be firing this turn and check calling the riv. Also, how do you know he mucked 77? did he show?

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

Think you should be 3 betting to around 7k here pre. Also, you are not pot committed preflop by only putting 10% of your stack out there( I don't understand why you would want to pot commit yourself in a tournament with 100bbs and ace high). Also, if btn 4bets... are your intentions to stack off?

I would've liked to see a flop cbet, but I don't mind the check being oop with a scary board that hits his range in such a hard way. I think we should definitely be firing this turn and check calling the riv. Also, how do you know he mucked 77? did he show?

My normal 3bet here would be to about 7k. I agree it is the large 3bet size that made this hand awkward. I raised very large for a specific reason, because of this tables tendencies to call large bets and large 3bets. To prove my point my huge raise DID get called by 77...can you imagine how many callers I would have gotten if I just raised to 7k? I would have gotten at least 2 callers; guaranteed. Now, that being said just because I had a reason for raising so big doesn't mean it was the correct play...and in fact it probably wasn't.

I am 83bbs deep not 100 and the player I'm isolating is 41bbs deep, so yes I am pot committing myself vs him for half my stack with Ak. Now maybe that's not smart, but that was how I chose to play this hand. If I raise to 7,000 (14% my stack) Then you are correct I am not pot committed.

If button 4bets then I'm in a really tough spot. Hard to imagine him having worse than QQ so I should probably find a fold...so perhaps THAT is the most compelling reason for me to 3bet smaller.

I guess I'm not sure what my goals should be with AK on a spot like this at a table like this. It's also a turbo live tourney (20 min blinds which is fast).

Yes, he did show. I'm always a little slow to show in these spots; try to encourage my opponents to show out of turn and gain some free info...a bit of an angle shoot...I know.

It was all in all a weird hand; which is why I'm posting it for review. I appreciate all the feedback...I'm trying to consider all the good points everyone is making.

 

[dealio96]

My normal 3bet here would be to about 7k. I agree it is the large 3bet size that made this hand awkward. I raised very large for a specific reason, because of this tables tendencies to call large bets and large 3bets. To prove my point my huge raise DID get called by 77...can you imagine how many callers I would have gotten if I just raised to 7k? I would have gotten at least 2 callers; guaranteed. Now, that being said just because I had a reason for raising so big doesn't mean it was the correct play...and in fact it probably wasn't.

I am 83bbs deep not 100 and the player I'm isolating is 41bbs deep, so yes I am pot committing myself vs him for half my stack with Ak. Now maybe that's not smart, but that was how I chose to play this hand. If I raise to 7,000 (14% my stack) Then you are correct I am not pot committed.
.

Yes...you are correct. I don't know why... but I thought you said you wanted to represent to the "table" that you're pot committed. My apologies.

 

[duggs]

you have to consider what you would do with your air (or would you only have a value range here?) because removing air from your range significantly lowers the EV of the 3bet irrespective of size theoretically.

 

[suby_rafael]

You could have bet a small amount on the river just so that villain does not get a free showdown. By the river we are pretty sure we have the best hand no ??

So if the pot was around 26k i make a tiny value bet anywhere between 4k to 6k.
A player with a Queen or a Jack will likely call this bet. It is likely he folds to this bet but some players will pay off this bet holding any pair especially the likes of those cold calling a huge 3bet pre flop with such a mediocre pair. But even if he folds his pockets we get to muck our cards.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

you have to consider what you would do with your air (or would you only have a value range here?) because removing air from your range significantly lowers the EV of the 3bet irrespective of size theoretically.

While I do have some speculative hands in my 3bet range (like 78s or 44), I wouldn't really 3bet with "air" at this table since it's such a loose action table.

But....if I had air I would probably bet. In fact, I know I would. That's a good point for betting...

You could have bet a small amount on the river just so that villain does not get a free showdown. By the river we are pretty sure we have the best hand no ??

So if the pot was around 26k i make a tiny value bet anywhere between 4k to 6k.
A player with a Queen or a Jack will likely call this bet. It is likely he folds to this bet but some players will pay off this bet holding any pair especially the likes of those cold calling a huge 3bet pre flop with such a mediocre pair. But even if he folds his pockets we get to muck our cards.

good point. Yes, by the river I am sure enough that I have the best hand that I would be willing to call about 15-18,000. I keep forgetting to add the value of not having to show down my hands to the list of pros and cons for whether or not to bet the river.

 

[rumsey182]

checking the flop is fine by me i would have a plan more personally for doing so but it is fine

turn and river you very clearly missed value and i think you know that