$12 NLHE STT Turbo: guy min 4-bets us cold...

[cjatud2012]

$12 NLHESTT Turbo: guy min 4-bets us cold...

Very first hand of this STT... uhh, wtf do I do? I've put a 3rd of my stack into this pot, but villain's range like 99% monsters... Do we ever find a fold here?

Full Tilt - $11+$1|15/30 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

SB: 1,500.00
BB: 1,500.00
UTG: 1,500.00
UTG+1: 1,500.00
MP: 1,500.00
MP+1: 1,500.00
LP: 1,500.00
Hero (CO): 1,500.00
BTN: 1,500.00

SB posts SB 15.00, BB posts BB 30.00

Pre Flop: (45.00) Hero has J:diamond: J:spade:

UTG raises to 90.00, fold, fold, fold, LP calls 90.00, Hero raises to 450.00, fold, SB raises to 810.00, fold, fold, LP calls 720.00, Hero ???

 

[Logan2]

Wird flat calling by LP 2 times, last time after a raise and reraise, he already have half of his stack there so he will go all the way, sb also want action, will be surprise if you are ahead.

your JJ versus 2 dont look that good, if you fold still have 1000 chips and with blinds in 30 means you still have a healthy 33bb stack.

I think 80% of the time will fold here, 20% will shove

 

[c9h13no3]

I think I cry & fold, but I don't like it. Can we 3-bet smaller here? Can we shove? Because if we put in 1/3 of our stack, we'll be getting 2:1, and folding jacks will look really difficult at that point. Its not a decision I wanna make.

 

[cjatud2012]

So would we go like ~t360 then? I don't think I'd wanna go much smaller than that since the pot is being contested multi-way, but I guess that would leave me less committed, which I guess is what we want?

I guess we could always flat for set value too, how would people feel about that?

 

[baudib1]

First hand, no reads, UTG raises, I'm honestly probably flatting this raise with JJ here. 3-bet is way too big; make it $250ish or shove if you're going to commit yourself. These guys are clearly retards, I'd be folding pretty quick.

 

[Clambake420]

So would we go like ~t360 then? I don't think I'd wanna go much smaller than that since the pot is being contested multi-way, but I guess that would leave me less committed, which I guess is what we want?

I guess we could always flat for set value too, how would people feel about that?

I like this idea of just flatting the raise. Maybe after ive established some reads on the players would i come in for a reraise. If the board comes all overs you can easily muck the hand and move on. I feel like JJ plays like any mid pp here, but i could be wrong.

 

[OzExorcist]

I make my three-bet more like 300 - if anyone's folding they'll be as likely to fold to that as they will to something bigger and it saves us some chips when we get four-bet.

Unless we've got prior knowledge about SB's game that dictates otherwise we pretty much have to fold, I'm expecting to see QQ+ here.

 

[WiZZiM]

I like this idea of just flatting the raise. Maybe after ive established some reads on the players would i come in for a reraise. If the board comes all overs you can easily muck the hand and move on. I feel like JJ plays like any mid pp here, but i could be wrong.

bingo

 

[cjatud2012]

WiZZ! How was your tourney??

As for the hand, it seems like we have two camps now, one for 3-betting smaller and one for flatting. They're probably both reasonable plays, can people tell why they prefer one to the other, and what conditions might make them change their mind?

 

[Logan2]

I like the flat, but..

If we flat and sb still raise and LP still call then still will fold?, or how much more we are available to call?,

 

[OzExorcist]

I three bet because I feel like JJ is slightly too good a hand to just be set mining with. None of the players that have acted so far have to have big hands and UTG in particular probably has to have AK/QQ+ to continue (or if they're continuing with less, we obviously love it) so there's a chance we take it down on the spot and we've got position so if we get called there's a chance we can take it down with a c-bet on the flop if we're checked to. If we're called we probably have to fold to bets on an overcard flop and we're pretty much forced to fold if we're four-bet preflop as well.

That'd be my default reasoning. But thinking it through we're not really talking about picking up a game-changing pot or anything so I can certainly see the logic to set mining it. Chances are we get at least one of the blinds in as well to give us a better chance of stacking someone or at least winning a bigger pot when we hit, we could still win a reasonable sized pot on an undercard flop and our position makes it easy to get away cheap if there's an unfriendly flop that draws action.

IDK, is this a case where flatting is probably the best option but raising wouldn't be a huge mistake either?

 

[WiZZiM]

WiZZ! How was your tourney??

As for the hand, it seems like we have two camps now, one for 3-betting smaller and one for flatting. They're probably both reasonable plays, can people tell why they prefer one to the other, and what conditions might make them change their mind?

Alright i suppose, 30th out of 158, finished 10 spots out of the money, but i know i can play at those tournaments no problem, the play is pretty bad.

I three bet because I feel like JJ is slightly too good a hand to just be set mining with. None of the players that have acted so far have to have big hands and UTG in particular probably has to have AK/QQ+ to continue (or if they're continuing with less, we obviously love it) so there's a chance we take it down on the spot and we've got position so if we get called there's a chance we can take it down with a c-bet on the flop if we're checked to. If we're called we probably have to fold to bets on an overcard flop and we're pretty much forced to fold if we're four-bet preflop as well.

That'd be my default reasoning. But thinking it through we're not really talking about picking up a game-changing pot or anything so I can certainly see the logic to set mining it. Chances are we get at least one of the blinds in as well to give us a better chance of stacking someone or at least winning a bigger pot when we hit, we could still win a reasonable sized pot on an undercard flop and our position makes it easy to get away cheap if there's an unfriendly flop that draws action.

IDK, is this a case where flatting is probably the best option but raising wouldn't be a huge mistake either?

Not sure if we even want to take it down preflop, it really gains nothing. i fail to see how 3betting an UTG raise can be a good play, if it comes from a later position i'm much happier, but they are rarely going to be folding here, which puts us in tricky spots postflop. A lot of the time one overcard hits and we have absolutely no idea what to do. When we make the 3bet, our thinking should be, let's try to get the chips in. We're folding to any 4bet, and the chips we pick up from 3betting are so small it's not even worth it. Setmining is the only play here. We can also continue on low boards, but we're not looking to get stacks in here.

 

[OzExorcist]

Not sure if we even want to take it down preflop, it really gains nothing. i fail to see how 3betting an UTG raise can be a good play, if it comes from a later position i'm much happier, but they are rarely going to be folding here, which puts us in tricky spots postflop. A lot of the time one overcard hits and we have absolutely no idea what to do. When we make the 3bet, our thinking should be, let's try to get the chips in. We're folding to any 4bet, and the chips we pick up from 3betting are so small it's not even worth it. Setmining is the only play here. We can also continue on low boards, but we're not looking to get stacks in here.

Huh... noted.

FWIW I don't think I can credit an unknown UTG with a range as tight as, say, AQs+/QQ+ (a known solid player sure, but not an unknown) but point taken, the range has to be a lot wider than that for us to be significantly ahead and there's not that much in the pot to gain preflop anyway.

 

[pat3392]

I hate these spots...

With the actual hand: Let's assume that the 2 players shoved instead of doing there raise/call thing. You need to win 29.3% to be break even. So if both villains are pushing QQ+,AQs+,AKo then this is a clear fold, but as soon as one of the villain deviates and pushes QQ+,AQs+,AQo+ it's a close call. I doubt that both of them would be pushing exactly QQ+,AQs+,AKo so in this particular spot I think you have to shove it.... Not sure how much a ICM tax has at the early stages though

I have the problem of getting myself in these ugly spots. What I've been doing as of late is going over what how each move effects villains range and what I'll do if villain shoves/calls and this river comes etc.

I've been told as a general rule of thumb, don't put in more than 1/4 of your stack preflop if you don't plan on going all the way

I don't like set mining here but it does seem optimal... The problem with raising is that we are so scared of villain's range that if he shows any strength we're basically giving up. What do we do if the flop comes Qxx, we c-bet and he shoves/calls? I think we'd have to fold/shut-down.... Therefore, we're bluffing with a strong hand. What if it's under cards and he check/raises? We're still probably behind..... So set mining seems best, unless villain likes to see flops with speculative hands and folds often to c-bets but even then.