$11 NLHE MTT Turbo: $$11 NLHE MTT Turbo: Idiot move?

[MoeJurphy]

Right, I play way to tight in the mid stage of MTT. I shoved into the blinds that are both noticably tight players trying to pick up the blinds and antes.

I understand as soon as I got a call it was a bad ply, but in general is this a donk move?

I was in deep 30/1.5k players.

pokerstars Hand #143045375770: Tournament #1356232180, $10+$1 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XIII (200/400) - 2015/10/30 17:40:24 WET [2015/10/30 13:40:24 ET]
Table '1356232180 162' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Luurveen (4295 in chips)
Seat 2: TheClever20 (7498 in chips)
Seat 3: kovi99 (2865 in chips)
Seat 4: ReinaAmadala (6340 in chips)
Seat 5: Iambigtuna (10162 in chips)
Seat 6: MoeJurphy (17884 in chips)
Seat 7: _dealer_315 (10335 in chips)
Seat 8: xEducationx (11572 in chips)
Seat 9: dudununes (4045 in chips)
Luurveen: posts the ante 50
TheClever20: posts the ante 50
kovi99: posts the ante 50
ReinaAmadala: posts the ante 50
Iambigtuna: posts the ante 50
MoeJurphy: posts the ante 50
_dealer_315: posts the ante 50
xEducationx: posts the ante 50
dudununes: posts the ante 50
_dealer_315: posts small blind 200
xEducationx: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MoeJurphy [9s Qs]
dudununes: folds
Luurveen: folds
TheClever20: folds
kovi99 has timed out
kovi99: folds
kovi99 is sitting out
ReinaAmadala: folds
kovi99 has returned
Iambigtuna: folds
MoeJurphy: raises 17434 to 17834 and is all-in
_dealer_315: folds
xEducationx: calls 11122 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (6312) returned to MoeJurphy
*** FLOP *** [8s Tc 8c]
*** TURN *** [8s Tc 8c] [Td]
*** RIVER *** [8s Tc 8c Td] 4♠
*** SHOW DOWN ***
xEducationx: shows [Kh As] (two pair, Tens and Eights)
MoeJurphy: shows [9s Qs] (two pair, Tens and Eights - lower kicker)
xEducationx collected 23694 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 23694 | Rake 0
Board [8s Tc 8c Td 4s]
Seat 1: Luurveen folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: TheClever20 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: kovi99 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: ReinaAmadala folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Iambigtuna folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: MoeJurphy (button) showed [9s Qs] and lost with two pair, Tens and Eights
Seat 7: _dealer_315 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: xEducationx (big blind) showed [Kh As] and won (23694) with two pair, Tens and Eights
Seat 9: dudununes folded before Flop (didn't bet)

 

[MoeJurphy]

Please bare in mind that this hand was unusual for my normal play, but as suggested I should open up my range mid stage and should be more confident shoving into blinds with lighter hands than normal.

 

[BluffMeAllIn]

Raise in that spot yes, shove almost 40bb no.

It is a nice hand to open in that spot and always happy to just pick up the blinds but it also has playability if they call vs shoving such a huge stack.

Generally we want to be shoving lighter in attempts to pick up the blinds when the blinds and ante's make up a decent % increase to our stack however that isn't the case when you are already sitting on a very nice playable stack.

 

[MoeJurphy]

Raise in that spot yes, shove almost 40bb no.

It is a nice hand to open in that spot and always happy to just pick up the blinds but it also has playability if they call vs shoving such a huge stack.

Generally we want to be shoving lighter in attempts to pick up the blinds when the blinds and ante's make up a decent % increase to our stack however that isn't the case when you are already sitting on a very nice playable stack.

Yeah I felt like an idiot shoving in that spot just couldn't see it until I already made the mistake.

 

[Bob23bk]

I understand as soon as I got a call it was a bad ply, but in general is this a donk move?

I was in deep 30/1.5k players.

Please bare in mind that this hand was unusual for my normal play, but as suggested I should open up my range mid stage and should be more confident shoving into blinds with lighter hands than normal.

Yes, I think this is a donk move- taking your notes into consideration I like an open here (2-3BB), but the shove is a donk move because you are only going to get called by better: meaning if you do happen to get it in you will definitely be behind! If you truly had a premium hand here, you probably wouldn't jam because you want to extract value so BB realizes you're bluffing or semi-bluffing (small PP or Ax). You may need to open your range as suggested, but save the shove for a 4B against a 3B from someone who 3B very wide. I also dislike this move because you are so deep in the tourney!

If you opened with an inconspicuous raise, BB would have called or 3B. If called, you may be able to push him off by the turn or river with proper 'value sized' bets; if 3B the same applies, though I'd probably fold.

 

[jordanbillie]

MoeJurphy,

This is hand that I typically min raise. You are WAY to deep to be open shoving any hand. Depending on the playback of the blinds, I usually am opening for 2.2-2.4x any time it is folded to me in this spot (with some minor exceptions).

Jordan

 

[MoeJurphy]

MoeJurphy,

This is hand that I typically min raise. You are WAY to deep to be open shoving any hand. Depending on the playback of the blinds, I usually am opening for 2.2-2.4x any time it is folded to me in this spot (with some minor exceptions).

Jordan

Yeah my read on the play was he was only playing premium hand (which I was right) not taking into account that this one time he could have that premium hand

 

[trent32la]

Not sure what the logic of troll jamming 40bb pre with Q9s here is, so yes, it was an idiot move lol. On 40bb effective you should never be open jamming if folded to you and I can't think of a spot where it makes sense.

In these spots a raise of 2x-2.5x is correct, personally I would just minraise in an MTT.

 

[ph_il]

It's actually a 27BB shove [effective stacks] since you had villain covered, but the shove was still a bad play. Don't let that get to you, though. Poker is a game of progression; you make a mistake, you learn from it, and improve. One thing that I did notice is your post is that you are a) reading and understanding the advice you're given and b) you're trying to apply it. I think that's great.

When it comes to stealing blinds late in an MTT, if you don't need to shove, you want to try and steal with the minimal risk to your stack. Obviously, you don't need to shove 25+BBs to steal a pot that's just over 2.5BBs, but say you're stack is only 10BBs, then a shove would be good.

In your OP, you said that the blinds were playing tight. So, you could definitely open up the pot on the BTN with Q9s for a ~2.5BB raise and get the same information you would get if you shoved.

-If villain has nothing, they're folding to a 2.5BB raise just as often as they are folding to a shove. If they're tight, most of the time they're folding and you're picking up a lot of small pots uncontested.

-If villain has something worth playing, they're raising the 2.5BB raise/calling the 27BB shove. The only difference is you can fold to the 3bet and still have a healthy stack, where as, if villain calls, you're probably a slight-to-huge underdog against a tight players range with Q9s.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

your general thought is correct: They are tight. it folded to me on the button, I should steal. But this is where stack size management is so critical.

The fact that you have 40bb is not exactly the reason you shouldn't shove...for instance if you had 40bb and the SB had 8bb and the BB had 11 BB....then yeah you should shove. but since effective stacks are something like 27-28bb you're just all way too deep to shove ANY hand right here. whether its' AA, 72o or AK open shoving doesn't make much sense.

The fact that they are tight should only embolden you to make a standard raise because the risk/reward ratio is much better when compared with a LAG defender in the BB. and when they 3bet you you can be pretty confident they have a hand and make your decision accordingly.

Now, sometimes if it was a tricky opponent in the BB I might shove a somewhat bigger stack....something like 18-20BB effective if I have a decent hand and I think the BB is capable of 3bet jamming light, or flatting a high % and outplaying me post flop.

 

[MoeJurphy]

your general thought is correct: They are tight. it folded to me on the button, I should steal. But this is where stack size management is so critical.

The fact that you have 40bb is not exactly the reason you shouldn't shove...for instance if you had 40bb and the SB had 8bb and the BB had 11 BB....then yeah you should shove. but since effective stacks are something like 27-28bb you're just all way too deep to shove ANY hand right here. whether its' AA, 72o or AK open shoving doesn't make much sense.

The fact that they are tight should only embolden you to make a standard raise because the risk/reward ratio is much better when compared with a LAG defender in the BB. and when they 3bet you you can be pretty confident they have a hand and make your decision accordingly.

Now, sometimes if it was a tricky opponent in the BB I might shove a somewhat bigger stack....something like 18-20BB effective if I have a decent hand and I think the BB is capable of 3bet jamming light, or flatting a high % and outplaying me post flop.

Really really helpful reply! Has put everything into perspective for me thanks!

 

[jordanbillie]