$109 NL HE MTT: How to play TPTK when it might not be best hand?

[Andyreas]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

MTT

Buy-in

109

VP$IP

28

PFR

19

Currency

$

Hi forum,

I know I played this wrong but thinking about the hand again and again and I am still not sure how I should have played it?

I'll first post the hand (w/o showdown), then the results and my thinking all seperately.

Some info about villian:
Looked him up on sharkscope before and he's a winning player. Usually plays mid-stakes and has an ROI of around 30%.

He played with VPIP 28 and PFR 19, so nothing crazy here. He was playing fairly aggressive usually though.

pokerstars, $100 + $9 - Hold'em No Limit - 7,000/14,000 (1,680 ante) - 8 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 247,247 (18 bb)
UTG+1: 1,183,464 (85 bb)
MP: 515,498 (37 bb)
MP+1: 535,317 (38 bb)
CO (Hero): 498,445 (36 bb)
BU: 434,290 (31 bb)
SB: 610,379 (44 bb)
BB: 489,847 (35 bb)

Pre-Flop: (34,440) Hero is CO with A♦ K♥
4 players fold, Hero raises to 28,000, BTN calls 28,000, 2 players fold

Flop: (90,440) J♣ A♠ J♥ (2 players)
Hero bets 29,845, BTN calls 29,845

Turn: (150,130) Q♠ (2 players)
Hero bets 75,065, BTN calls 75,065

River: (300,260) 7♣ (2 players)
Hero bets 150,130, BTN calls 150,130

Total pot: 600,520

Spoiler: Showdown

Showdown:
CO (Hero) shows A♦ K♥ (two pair, Aces and Jacks)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 70%, Flop: 9%, Turn: 8%, River: 0%)

BU shows K♠ J♠ (three of a kind, Jacks)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 30%, Flop: 91%, Turn: 92%, River: 100%)

BU wins 600,520

Spoiler: Thinking

My thinking was as follows:

• His range: Of course he has position on me but the fact he didn't 3-bet was weird to me to some extend. So I would exclude the top part of his range like JJ+, AJ+ and put him on any suited Ace, suited connectors, suited broadways or any PP.
• Flop: Not the best flop for me since I have TPTK but of course could be behind any Jack. I decided to make a standard c-bet. He calls. So he didn't completely miss the flop but I could still see him calling with a weaker Ace or any decent PP which I'd beat or a KQ/KT for a straight draw. Of course I could already be behind any Jack.
• Turn: Not the best card for me but at least I picked up a straight draw and I decided to bet again to challenge his potential draw(s). He calls again.
• River: No draw completed, so basically I only beat any of his bluffs. I know I should definitely have stopped betting here but I decided to keep control to not make him potentially bet full pot if checked to him.
• Showdown: Well, he exactly had the hand I was afraid of and probably did not raise due to a potential straight?

So please enlighten me how to improve my play on these kind of boards with TPTK but potentially miles behind a better hand.

 

[puzzlefish]

I find that when you're playing for stacks, it's better to only do that when you have the nuts or are very likely to get the nuts by the river. If it's not that good of a board, slow down and consider who is coming along with you. Who is calling your half pot bet on the river that's not worse than you, especially in a $109 MTT? I think you know that the river was a check and a fold against a pot bet.

 

[feisas7991]

on ATT and under boards im way more comfortable to triple barrel here. on AJJ+ feels like not happy triple therefor check otf seems much better.
as played ott and otr gottta triple for value, nothing u can do on this run out.
hope this helps and Good Luck!

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Standard open

Flop
On this flop you dont really have top pair, since you lose to any hand with a J. And its not a board like A22 or A44, where maybe we can say, the opponent is unlikely to have trips. He certainly has JX in his range, so this is almost the same as having KJ on a board like AAJ rainbow. And would you go for 3 streets of value with such a hand? I dont think so, and then you should also not go for 3 streets with AK on a board like AJJ. Its also as much of a way ahead way behind spot, as you will ever find, because if you are ahead, he has very few outs to draw out on you. So for me I would check here for some pot control and to allow him to bluff.

Turn
Now you lose to AQ as well as KT, if he floated with that. As played definitely check with intention to check-call.

River
As played you have absolutely run out of value and need to check. If he has a worse AX, his kicker does not even play, so you are expecting him to call for a chopper.

Spoiler
So he had a J. Not exactly a shocking outcome. You overplayed your hand and value owned yourself.

 

[Andyreas]

Not exactly a shocking outcome.

Savage. 🤣

So for me I would check here for some pot control and to allow him to bluff.

Fair point. And you'd call a reasonable bet on flop nevertheless or already fold here?

If call, would you check turn again and fold to another bet? 🤔

Edit: you already answer this question partly, so you'd fold to another bet with this turn.
What if the turn would have been a blank, like 2d? Still a fold? 🤔

 

[fundiver199]

I am definitely not folding to one bet and not even two. Maybe three but it depends on his sizing and reads. The point though is, that by checking you allow him to bluff, and therefore his range will be wider than, if you go bet, bet, bet.

 

[puzzlefish]

I am definitely not folding to one bet and not even two. Maybe three but it depends on his sizing and reads.

I think the biggest learning point possible with this hand would be in distinguishing between value-owning yourself versus getting value-owned in the traditional sense. When we bet for our villain, we may sometimes get away with a smaller loss than when we play passively and let them bet (hoping to bluff catch). Usually it goes the other way though and there's a raise on our bet at some point and we have to contemplate our choices.

On boards like these when we can obviously be behind quite badly, how much reading is there that can be done? Jx is always going to be in the range. Then all that remains is bet sizing and I am guessing that you would come along for 1/3 and maybe all the way up to 1/2 pot bets on the first two streets. Could you get away from a 1/2 pot bet on the turn?

 

[pentazepam]

If you get called on street by a worse hand on that board you should consider it a good outcome.

Almost nobody calls more than two streets with a worse ace or a draw that miss.

 

[fundiver199]

Could you get away from a 1/2 pot bet on the turn?

Probably not.

 

[feisas7991]

Preflop
Standard open

Flop
On this flop you dont really have top pair, since you lose to any hand with a J. And its not a board like A22 or A44, where maybe we can say, the opponent is unlikely to have trips. He certainly has JX in his range, so this is almost the same as having KJ on a board like AAJ rainbow. And would you go for 3 streets of value with such a hand? I dont think so, and then you should also not go for 3 streets with AK on a board like AJJ. Its also as much of a way ahead way behind spot, as you will ever find, because if you are ahead, he has very few outs to draw out on you. So for me I would check here for some pot control and to allow him to bluff.

Turn
Now you lose to AQ as well as KT, if he floated with that. As played definitely check with intention to check-call.

River
As played you have absolutely run out of value and need to check. If he has a worse AX, his kicker does not even play, so you are expecting him to call for a chopper.

Spoiler
So he had a J. Not exactly a shocking outcome. You overplayed your hand and value owned yourself.

on the button. regs jam any Ax otr 100% of time as you are capping yourself on the river. you getting screwed big time if you check fold on the river and when you check you basically allow them to bluff you off a chop as well as with worse hands.
you basically play to check fold on the river or make some random guesses on their range.
your hand is clear value there on top of that

if needed can word it better later but imo bet fold is always better otr than xc


hope this helps and Good Luck!

 

[eetenor]

Hi forum,

I know I played this wrong but thinking about the hand again and again and I am still not sure how I should have played it?

I'll first post the hand (w/o showdown), then the results and my thinking all seperately.

Some info about villian:
Looked him up on SharkScope before and he's a winning player. Usually plays mid-stakes and has an ROI of around 30%.

He played with VPIP 28 and PFR 19, so nothing crazy here. He was playing fairly aggressive usually though.

PokerStars, $100 + $9 - Hold'em No Limit - 7,000/14,000 (1,680 ante) - 8 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 247,247 (18 bb)
UTG+1: 1,183,464 (85 bb)
MP: 515,498 (37 bb)
MP+1: 535,317 (38 bb)
CO (Hero): 498,445 (36 bb)
BU: 434,290 (31 bb)
SB: 610,379 (44 bb)
BB: 489,847 (35 bb)

Pre-Flop: (34,440) Hero is CO with A♦ K♥
4 players fold, Hero raises to 28,000, BTN calls 28,000, 2 players fold

Flop: (90,440) J♣ A♠ J♥ (2 players)
Hero bets 29,845, BTN calls 29,845

Turn: (150,130) Q♠ (2 players)
Hero bets 75,065, BTN calls 75,065

River: (300,260) 7♣ (2 players)
Hero bets 150,130, BTN calls 150,130

Total pot: 600,520

Spoiler: Showdown

Showdown:
CO (Hero) shows A♦ K♥ (two pair, Aces and Jacks)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 70%, Flop: 9%, Turn: 8%, River: 0%)

BU shows K♠ J♠ (three of a kind, Jacks)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 30%, Flop: 91%, Turn: 92%, River: 100%)

BU wins 600,520

Spoiler: Thinking

My thinking was as follows:

• His range: Of course he has position on me but the fact he didn't 3-bet was weird to me to some extend. So I would exclude the top part of his range like JJ+, AJ+ and put him on any suited Ace, suited connectors, suited broadways or any PP.
• Flop: Not the best flop for me since I have TPTK but of course could be behind any Jack. I decided to make a standard c-bet. He calls. So he didn't completely miss the flop but I could still see him calling with a weaker Ace or any decent PP which I'd beat or a KQ/KT for a straight draw. Of course I could already be behind any Jack.
• Turn: Not the best card for me but at least I picked up a straight draw and I decided to bet again to challenge his potential draw(s). He calls again.
• River: No draw completed, so basically I only beat any of his bluffs. I know I should definitely have stopped betting here but I decided to keep control to not make him potentially bet full pot if checked to him.
• Showdown: Well, he exactly had the hand I was afraid of and probably did not raise due to a potential straight?

So please enlighten me how to improve my play on these kind of boards with TPTK but potentially miles behind a better hand.

You seem to know that this is not the spot to play the way you did however you did it anyway. That is your study spot-finding out the why of your actions.

Take the time to reflect on why you would tilt bet the river

Was it this hand type that causes it or something else that triggered your tilt earlier that day?

 

[puzzlefish]

Could you get away from a 1/2 pot bet on the turn?

Probably not.

Then what is left is what we do on the river.

imo bet fold is always better otr than xc

So, bet 1/3 and hope a weaker ace calls instead of jamming? I just don't see what other hand we are hoping will have come to the river with us, that would call any bet here.

And if Jx starts jamming instead of calling, or QQ and 77, then we just lose our entire stack if we read that as Ax trying to steal the chop.

 

[300HPGOD]

I agree with some of the above. I think the flop is a great spot to check and then if you face a bet you would be calling in all likelihood. It is a board where Jx could still bet big on this flop thinking you could have Ax a lot and aren't folding so we couldnt discount Jx if we faced a large bet but nonetheless, I would not be checking this flop with the intention of folding to a bet.

As played with a bet on the flop (which I dont like as stated above) I think you should be checking back here. We need to check one of the streets here unless we want to rep Jx which in that case what we are doing is taking our pair of aces and turning into a bluff which will never get a better hand to fold. Therefore, you need to check somewhere and as played it would be here. If you had checked the flop I would bet the turn as now there are many more worse hands that could call with a flush draw coming out. We block K10 so I am less worried about that than Jx. If I did check the flop I would not want to check turn and just keep letting villain to draw for free/not put any pressure on them when we do have at least somewhat of a hand.

River is a very easy check whether you played the prior streets bet check, check check, bet bet or check bet. I would be mostly bluff catching here unless I knew something about the villain that would make me think otherwise. Again though, if I had played it bet bet and then check river to face a bet it could be a bluff but its also how Jx would have done it too so its a tough spot which is why its much easier to check in one of the earlier streets in these types of hands.

 

[fundiver199]

I tried to run the hand in GTO Wizard, but unfortunately I ran into the paywall, as soon as I has plugged in the preflop action and the board. But I did have time to see, that AKo mostly check the flop but also bet with different sizes something like 40% of the time. In my first post I wrote, that Hero value owned himself. And maybe this is a bit harsh, because the hand is a bit of a cooler, and stacks did not go in. So its difficult to lose less than this against an opponent, who we think is capable of bluffing.

The reason, why I prefer a more passive line, is the fact, we are out of position, and its such a way-ahead way-behind spot. In general we are supposed to bet less when out of position even as the preflop raiser. Part of the reason for that is, the opponent is supposed to have a much stronger range, when he call us in the field, than if he defend his big blind. That might not always be the case, if we are playing against a freeroll maniac, but this was a good midstakes MTT reg.

He will do a decent amount of bluffing when checked to, and we have no problem with the flop getting checked through, when at most he can have 4 outs to a gutshot, and most of his range is drawing even thinner than that. Unless of course he already has us beat. Its also interesting, that he just called down with his trips good kicker. For me that is an indication, that he put hero on a much more polarized range, than hero actually had. If he expected Hero to be tripple barreling for value with something as weak as AK, he would most likely have jammed the river and gone after a full dubble up.

 

[Andyreas]

So its difficult to lose less than this against an opponent, who we think is capable of bluffing.

That was exactly what I was wondering about with your argumentation.

But happy you took the time to explain again.

So with this exact two hands, the outcome would have been similar, if he didn't go full pot on turn or river for example.

But in theory, I would have had more chances to win at showdown with a passive line assuming he keeps the bluffs in his range.

Its also interesting, that he just called down with his trips good kicker. For me that is an indication, that he put hero on a much more polarized range, than hero actually had. If he expected Hero to be tripple barreling for value with something as weak as AK, he would most likely have jammed the river and gone after a full dubble up.

I wondered the same.

My guess is he maybe was a little afraid of AJ/QJ, since I've been playing rather tight in the game or also the board had potential for a straight with KT. There's also AA or QQ who'd beat his trips. But yes, overall not many hands in the range which have him beat.

Or he simply didn't expect me to bet Ax for 3 streets on this board but probably put that as a note after the hand. 🤣

 

[fundiver199]

So with this exact two hands, the outcome would have been similar, if he didn't go full pot on turn or river for example.

If we take a passive line, and he sets it up to jam the river, I think, we can fold to that river jam, given that we have many better hands in our range, and it is for 30+BB. Its also a subtle detail, that we cover him. On one side this this mean, we can win his bounty, which is an extra incentive to call an all-in. But of the other side he should also know , we are more likely to call, and be less likely to bluff as a result.

But in theory, I would have had more chances to win at showdown with a passive line assuming he keeps the bluffs in his range.

Exactly. We dont want to isolate ourselfes against only the top part of his range. And on such a dry board its great for us, if he starts a bluff with a hand like 98 of spades. Of course the opponent matter as well. If you were playing against some huge fish, then there is no problem with your line, since a fish will have all AX hands in his range and probably not be able to fold them postflop. And a fish is also less likely to bluff. But against a good opponent checking to induce is more profitable in the long run with this kind of hand.

 

[DanielNeg]

It was a good hand but not for you😅
Although you could have minimize your losses let me explain.
Firstly you raised that’s a good move
after that flop comes Jc As Jh
You should have checked that would let the opponent decide what they wanna do however raising postflop was okay but when he called you should also consider 10J, JQ, JK, 10,Q
We go to the turn and turn card is Qs
Now you should have checked but you raised and he called once again after that call you should have been aware that he has J but you didn’t stop and the river comes 7c
and you raised a pot size bet which was not necessary in my opinion after called your two bet on flop and turn.
It does happen with me alot we don’t like to check because we don’t want to get bluffed and we don’t want to let them know we are weak we don’t have J that’s why you didn’t check I guess.
It’s not a big deal @Andyreas just learn from your mistakes only mistake you did was you were not ready to accept that your opponent has jack.
Don’t worry mate we don’t lose either we learn or we win❤️
Wishing you best of luck in your upcoming games🙌

 

[feisas7991]

Could you get away from a 1/2 pot bet on the turn?


Then what is left is what we do on the river.

So, bet 1/3 and hope a weaker ace calls instead of jamming? I just don't see what other hand we are hoping will have come to the river with us, that would call any bet here.

And if Jx starts jamming instead of calling, or QQ and 77, then we just lose our entire stack if we read that as Ax trying to steal the chop.

when u check he jams atc otr, since you have no traps, therefor imo its mandatory block bet otr

hope this helps and Good Luck!