$1000 NLHE MTT: Two AK's in the $1K Double Stack

[ssbn743]

This hand for context:
1st level $100/$100 $40K starting stacks
UTG $300
+1 $300
in BB we have $1200 (Maybe could go bigger here, $2K?)
both call
$3600

$2500/fold/call

$5k/call

Check/$11K/Fold

So, could have had a set here, or even something like 55. Unfortunately, I think his range was much, much wider than that and pretty much labeled this player "The Donk". Nonetheless, The donk probably does have me beat as ugly as it likely is.

A few levels later
$100/$200/$200, we have $80K, villain from hand above with about $45K

From the CO we open to $600
Folds to villain BB who 3-bets to $1,700 in a very splashy way
We go for the 4-bet and make it $5K

Villain jams after going "Hmmmm", "I'm all-in"

Call? Fold?

A few more levels later
$600/$1200/$1200, we have $82K

From the CO we open to $2,500
Button ($50K) 3-bets us small to $5,500 (a pretty weak player that simply knew how to 3-bet)
BB 4-bet Jams $37K

I believe the button is just testing us in this spot, he's not strong enough to go all the way:
1. With AK, I block AA and KK from both of their ranges
2. There may even be some blocks happening between those two
3. There's an extra $5,500 in the middle in what is a likely race scenario

I don't think calling is an option
So, fold? re-jam?

 

[fundiver199]

In the first hand with TT, I would probably check the turn. The board smashed his range, and there is already a 1-liner to a straight. Definitly check-folding the river as played. In the second hand definitly folding. Stacking off AK 200 BB deep is spew without a massive read.

The third hand is closer. If BTN is just goofing around, there is a lot of dead money for BB to attack, and he had a nice stack for it. But nothing wrong with folding either. Losing half your stack will be pretty detrimental, and maybe you can find a better spot later.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Nice, double stack! (I played this too.)

In first hand, preflop sizing is fine imo, but size the flop smaller - you're going to smash out a lot of weaker holdings with this size imo, and I don't really want to have to bluff this large especially in Level 1 too. As played, I don't HATE a turn bet, but again go smaller. Why are we trying to blast out all weaker holdings? Did you have anything to go on to call this guy a "donk" and he's just never folding a pair? Cause the river bet seems like insanity to me. You are targeting literally JUST 99. And even if he raises sets on an earlier street sometimes, I don't think it's going to be 100% of the time.

Second hand is one of these super spot-dependent things. In online poker I would just never be sticking in this many big blinds with AKo. It just can't be good. Live CAN be a little different and spewy, but I'm still hating this. We are probably NEVER smashing him. Is this guy REALLY just calms ripping in AQs? I doubt it. What about JJ? Also kinda doubt it. I'm probably folding here. Also wouldn't mind not 4betting this hand from in position, but if you are going to 4bet, for the love of Pete, go smaller. We don't need to 3x this guy just cause he plays a lot of hands. You didn't mention anything about him 3betting a lot, so no reason to think he's going mad here all the time.

Third hand, firstly, calling and rejamming are effectively the same action. You communicate the same strength, and if BTN DOES decide to go with it, he will do so with the same range regardless of which choice you made (and you're never call/folding). So effectively it's same action.

But in any case, I'm calling off here. BTN vs CO vs BB, I'd need a read on the BB that he's never doing this with AQ or TT to fold AK here. We're getting a decent price, it's tough for BTN to follow along behind to this action if we get it in, and AK just can't be in THAT bad of shape vs BB range.

Keep in mind BB is only shoving 30bb. He is looking for a spot. I would not be at all shocked to see 88 or 99 and AQ as the bottom of a shoving range here from a NORMAL player, let alone a more aggressive opponent if he happens to be that.

 

[ssbn743]

Nice, double stack! (I played this too.)

In first hand, preflop sizing is fine imo, but size the flop smaller - you're going to smash out a lot of weaker holdings with this size imo, and I don't really want to have to bluff this large especially in Level 1 too. As played, I don't HATE a turn bet, but again go smaller. Why are we trying to blast out all weaker holdings? Did you have anything to go on to call this guy a "donk" and he's just never folding a pair? Cause the river bet seems like insanity to me. You are targeting literally JUST 99. And even if he raises sets on an earlier street sometimes, I don't think it's going to be 100% of the time.

Second hand is one of these super spot-dependent things. In online poker I would just never be sticking in this many big blinds with AKo. It just can't be good. Live CAN be a little different and spewy, but I'm still hating this. We are probably NEVER smashing him. Is this guy REALLY just calms ripping in AQs? I doubt it. What about JJ? Also kinda doubt it. I'm probably folding here. Also wouldn't mind not 4betting this hand from in position, but if you are going to 4bet, for the love of Pete, go smaller. We don't need to 3x this guy just cause he plays a lot of hands. You didn't mention anything about him 3betting a lot, so no reason to think he's going mad here all the time.

Third hand, firstly, calling and rejamming are effectively the same action. You communicate the same strength, and if BTN DOES decide to go with it, he will do so with the same range regardless of which choice you made (and you're never call/folding). So effectively it's same action.

But in any case, I'm calling off here. BTN vs CO vs BB, I'd need a read on the BB that he's never doing this with AQ or TT to fold AK here. We're getting a decent price, it's tough for BTN to follow along behind to this action if we get it in, and AK just can't be in THAT bad of shape vs BB range.

Keep in mind BB is only shoving 30bb. He is looking for a spot. I would not be at all shocked to see 88 or 99 and AQ as the bottom of a shoving range here from a NORMAL player, let alone a more aggressive opponent if he happens to be that.

For the TT hand

I guess I could size flop smaller, but this board is not nearly as dry as I’d like. As for ranging, I’m not ranging him nearly as much as I’m playing my hand and trying to go 3-streets for value here; and when discussing his range, aside from sets, he should have bricked this flop.

We have a super big SPR in this situation, in fact, I’m not against pot/pot/pot here, if he simply folds flop, that’s fine with me. Anyway, I guess we could get into a sizing discussion if you’d like, I just prefer to bet big against weaker players strictly for value.

For the first AK hand:

I just know this guy to be bad. In the TT hand above, that was the very first hand he sat down at the table, I didn’t include that in the OP (and I can hear you groaning reading this). I absolutely would not have been shocked to see him roll 57o.

So, that brings us to decision time in the AK hand.

A standard 4-bet is 20-25BB, I suppose I could have gone to something a little smaller like $4K, but I still like piling it in with the best hand against donk-tastic. I’ll give you that it is on the bigger side, and maybe I could work sizing down a bit – I certainly get the same information for $4K – but these players can’t fold, so I went big.

I really don’t like flat calling the 3-bet. If we’re not 4-betting AK, we’re not 4-betting enough IMO. Now, we’re going to get into a bit of a philosophical discussion here, in that this guy is not good enough to ascertain me not merging my 4-bet range - and I will agree with that – I just think you practice like you play, once you start flatting AK in position….

I settled on a fold and no one showed, so I’ll never truly know.

The second AK hand

This one was a much easier decision in my mind for exactly the reasons you outlined.

I ripped it, the button insta-folded as expected and the BB rolled AA

Ummm…. Yeah. What a wake up huh? There are 6 combo’s I’m not profitable against there.

So, anyway – the point of this was not just a bad beat story, but to make sure my thinking was correct. If I opened and the BB ripped it – we have a tighter spot, though I think it’s still a call, but especially with the button 3-betting….. Tough one.

 

[Bozovicdj]

Nice, double stack! (I played this too.)

In first hand, preflop sizing is fine imo, but size the flop smaller - you're going to smash out a lot of weaker holdings with this size imo, and I don't really want to have to bluff this large especially in Level 1 too. As played, I don't HATE a turn bet, but again go smaller. Why are we trying to blast out all weaker holdings? Did you have anything to go on to call this guy a "donk" and he's just never folding a pair? Cause the river bet seems like insanity to me. You are targeting literally JUST 99. And even if he raises sets on an earlier street sometimes, I don't think it's going to be 100% of the time.

For the first hand:

What do you think about flat calling here with TT?

I mean, we are talking about UTG bet here on the first level. I don't see too many players doing so with a very wide range of hands. I would say that UTG+1 could have a wide range, but can't find it possible for UTG here?

In all honesty, I would play it slow and not get into spots where I need to act OOP on the flop...
Even flops such as these are not 100% safe cause, as much as UTG could have a smaller PP, he could as well have a higher one!


For the second hand, I don't really understand why would you 4bet-fold the hand?
Again, if you flat call pre-flop, you are losing the minimum in case A or a K don't hit, in case they do, you are IP so you can dictate whether to build the pot to be big or not.. You are giving yourself options by flatting.

Also, if you are 4bet-folding AK here, isn't that sort of exploitative in the long run?

I imagine there would then be quite a few hands you would 4bet-fold in this particular scenario, against this particular player..

Third hand:
My thinking was that player from the 2nd hand had to have a pair, not likely does he have AQ/AJs or something that you heavily dominate. If you didn't call him, basically knowing you are flipping, would you then call a 4bet-jam in the 3rd hand?
As for what Scourge said, I think flatting here and re-jamming is the same thing. There is no scenario ever where you flat, and then BU flats behind you leaving a 10k stack behind..

I would place BB on any pocket pair here, again, I don't think there is a chance for him to have Ax hands worse then AK, especially when facing bet and a raise.

 

[ssbn743]

For the first hand:

What do you think about flat calling here with TT?

I mean, we are talking about UTG bet here on the first level. I don't see too many players doing so with a very wide range of hands. I would say that UTG+1 could have a wide range, but can't find it possible for UTG here?

In all honesty, I would play it slow and not get into spots where I need to act OOP on the flop...
Even flops such as these are not 100% safe cause, as much as UTG could have a smaller PP, he could as well have a higher one!


For the second hand, I don't really understand why would you 4bet-fold the hand?
Again, if you flat call pre-flop, you are losing the minimum in case A or a K don't hit, in case they do, you are IP so you can dictate whether to build the pot to be big or not.. You are giving yourself options by flatting.

Also, if you are 4bet-folding AK here, isn't that sort of exploitative in the long run?

I imagine there would then be quite a few hands you would 4bet-fold in this particular scenario, against this particular player..

Third hand:
My thinking was that player from the 2nd hand had to have a pair, not likely does he have AQ/AJs or something that you heavily dominate. If you didn't call him, basically knowing you are flipping, would you then call a 4bet-jam in the 3rd hand?
As for what Scourge said, I think flatting here and re-jamming is the same thing. There is no scenario ever where you flat, and then BU flats behind you leaving a 10k stack behind..

I would place BB on any pocket pair here, again, I don't think there is a chance for him to have Ax hands worse then AK, especially when facing bet and a raise.

TT Hand
I can get behind a flat pre-flop there. I’m not in love with it, OOP 200BB deep, but I can see some merit to it. I think it’s right on the line though, I mean JJ is a definite raise – agree?

The trouble with flatting here, this deep, is that we’re never going to know where we’re at. When the flop comes out all rags like this and we have the over pair, especially against +1, it’s going to be hard for us to fold and we essentially turn our hand into a bluff-catcher.

I suppose the answer is the classic Doug Polk we all love so much – “both”.

Second Hand
Wherever we are, we need to make sure we have an equal amount of raises/calls/folds.

From the CO: 22+, A2s+, K8s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo


Fold to 3-bet: less than 66, suited aces less than AJ, unsuited broadways, suited lower broadways…
Calls: AJ+, 66+, T9s+
4-bets: JJ+, AK+, A5s

So the idea is to create an equal amount of hands in each category – specifically to make us un-exploitable. So, I would say not 4-betting makes us exploitable in the long run because competent opponents can 3-bet a wider range knowing that we’re 4-betting less.

Now, is that going happen here? No. I’ll probably never play that guy again. So, this whole conversation loses some merit. There is actually a webinar on this exact subject from Tonka (Parker Talbot).

However, I still think that we need to maximize value with our big hands in tournaments especially. I would need a very specific reason to flat the 3-bet and play my hand in a station-ish way here. And maybe that reason is that he’s going to 5-bet pile – if I knew huh?

Third Hand
I was just seeing if anyone saw a way out of that one. I think we’re in agreement that it just sucks.

 

[Bozovicdj]

TT Hand
I can get behind a flat pre-flop there. I’m not in love with it, OOP 200BB deep, but I can see some merit to it. I think it’s right on the line though, I mean JJ is a definite raise – agree?

The trouble with flatting here, this deep, is that we’re never going to know where we’re at. When the flop comes out all rags like this and we have the over pair, especially against +1, it’s going to be hard for us to fold and we essentially turn our hand into a bluff-catcher.

I suppose the answer is the classic Doug Polk we all love so much – “both”.

Second Hand
Wherever we are, we need to make sure we have an equal amount of raises/calls/folds.

From the CO: 22+, A2s+, K8s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo


Fold to 3-bet: less than 66, suited aces less than AJ, unsuited broadways, suited lower broadways…
Calls: AJ+, 66+, T9s+
4-bets: JJ+, AK+, A5s

So the idea is to create an equal amount of hands in each category – specifically to make us un-exploitable. So, I would say not 4-betting makes us exploitable in the long run because competent opponents can 3-bet a wider range knowing that we’re 4-betting less.

Now, is that going happen here? No. I’ll probably never play that guy again. So, this whole conversation loses some merit. There is actually a webinar on this exact subject from Tonka (Parker Talbot).

However, I still think that we need to maximize value with our big hands in tournaments especially. I would need a very specific reason to flat the 3-bet and play my hand in a station-ish way here. And maybe that reason is that he’s going to 5-bet pile – if I knew huh?

Third Hand
I was just seeing if anyone saw a way out of that one. I think we’re in agreement that it just sucks.

1st:
I agree that TT and even JJ is a borderline case for me. It's just the fact that I would have to fold to another raise from either of our opponents pre-flop, and if I do get called by any of them, I really need to see a dry board with no scare cards to be confident enough to continue.
Also, if we believe their opening range is wide from those spots, then they are calling 3-bets way too often as well (as it turned out to be what happened in this hand). That being said, are you confident enough to play TT OOP on a board like 456 with two hearts?
At the same time, flatting pre gives you the benefit of doubt. You, yourself, when flatting from the BB can hit so many of those 9high flops, considering that BB should be defended rather wide, especially when deepstacked..

Personally I would flat to give myself more playability post flop on wider types of boards.

To explain what I mean:
If I 3bet pre with TT, I can't really continue on A/K high boards, can't continue on very wet boards, cause of all the strong drawing hand that are re-raising.
If I flat pre, I can turn my hand into a bluff on SD/FD boards, and check-raise decent amount of time, while if I see an A/K high board, I can check-fold and save some chips.

2nd:
My belief is that 4bet-folding makes us exploitable. In my mind, if we flat call a 3bet we are still showing strength as much as we do with a 4bet. Problem occurs when opponent jams over our 4bet and we fold.
I would 100% of the time put you on AK/AQ, 99- and try to exploit it further into the tournament.
For example, I would flat call your 4bets with monsters, and jam with weaker holdings, because I now know you are folding a part of your 4betting range.

3rd:
Yep, it sucks.
Personally I am leaning towards a fold here (Doug Polk pun ).
That BU that re-raised you in the first place, could be just another dummy that does this with 77s and then calls both of you, at the same time, I have seen week players make such small re-raises pre with super strong holdings because they think: "I have a premium, I don't want to shove and make him fold, so I am gonna min raise and give him good price to call"
Honestly, AK vs two opponents, is not something I am excited about. solely cause of those AK vs AX vs PP spots.
In case there was no action from the BU, I would probably call that shove.

 

[ssbn743]

1st:
I agree that TT and even JJ is a borderline case for me. It's just the fact that I would have to fold to another raise from either of our opponents pre-flop, and if I do get called by any of them, I really need to see a dry board with no scare cards to be confident enough to continue.
Also, if we believe their opening range is wide from those spots, then they are calling 3-bets way too often as well (as it turned out to be what happened in this hand). That being said, are you confident enough to play TT OOP on a board like 456 with two hearts?
At the same time, flatting pre gives you the benefit of doubt. You, yourself, when flatting from the BB can hit so many of those 9high flops, considering that BB should be defended rather wide, especially when deepstacked..

Personally I would flat to give myself more playability post flop on wider types of boards.

To explain what I mean:
If I 3bet pre with TT, I can't really continue on A/K high boards, can't continue on very wet boards, cause of all the strong drawing hand that are re-raising.
If I flat pre, I can turn my hand into a bluff on SD/FD boards, and check-raise decent amount of time, while if I see an A/K high board, I can check-fold and save some chips.

TT Hand

I absolutely get what you’re saying, but for the exact same reasons prefer raise. Move us, with our TT to the Button or CO, I flat almost every time. From the blinds though, we’re OOP against an UTG open – let’s just find out where we’re at.

Even a light gun range is going to be very strong on many boards – so if called and we get one of the AKx flops, we’re almost certainly going to have to check/fold, but at least we know where we’re at.

Basically, I think both can be correct. Maybe we could lean a little towards the call side since it is a wsop tournament (although I would like to point out that this particular event had 30 minutes levels), and since we’re 200BB deep and can afford to just wait it out. Honestly, it probably doesn’t matter much – we probably win/lose the same over time with either line regardless.

The chart does say call – so you’re right in preferring a call. There are some other factors in this one though, 30 min levels, +1 donk overcall, $1K WSOP shit-show. I don’t know – maybe I’ll flat this next time.

2nd

2nd:
My belief is that 4bet-folding makes us exploitable. In my mind, if we flat call a 3bet we are still showing strength as much as we do with a 4bet. Problem occurs when opponent jams over our 4bet and we fold.
I would 100% of the time put you on AK/AQ, 99- and try to exploit it further into the tournament.
For example, I would flat call your 4bets with monsters, and jam with weaker holdings, because I now know you are folding a part of your 4betting range.

But this is good for us – we should be folding a part of our 4-bet range, otherwise our opponents can simply fold when we 4-bet and beat us with optimal play. And by flatting monsters, you open yourself up to being exploited/costing yourself value with the top of your range.

If they always put us on AK/AQ, 99 – our opponents are going to lose their stacks when we have it. Take a general 4-bet range for example, AA,KK,AK, where we have 16 combos of AK, and 12 combos AA-KK. We could even get into a suited AK discussion and say there are 4 combos of AK suited we stack with, meaning 12/16. Hell, let’s just split it, 14/14 – assuming AK because we folded after 4-betting puts our opponents’ entire stack in play on a 50/50 – which is what we want and is good for us, they win a 20BB 4-bet when they’re right, and get stacked when wrong.