$1 NLHE MTT Deep Stacked: QQ with A on board

[imwatcher]

Okay so this is in the daily dollar with about 1500 left, i am at a pretty crazy table, people stacking off with mid pair etc and i wake up with QQ. My main question is do you open shove hoping to avoid a suckout, or (very rarely) make a low ace fold or do you check then call or shove to a bet?


Full Tilt - 250/500 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG+1: 43,479.00
MP: 67,831.00
MP+1: 13,246.00
LP: 19,380.00
CO: 33,526.00
BTN: 64,204.00
Hero (SB): 9,460.00
BB: 12,745.00
UTG: 15,035.00

UTG+1 posts ante 50.00, MP posts ante 50.00, MP+1 posts ante 50.00, LP posts ante 50.00, CO posts ante 50.00, BTN posts ante 50.00, Hero posts ante 50.00, BB posts ante 50.00, UTG posts ante 50.00, Hero posts SB 250.00, BB posts BB 500.00

Pre Flop: (1200.00) Hero has Q:club: Q:spade:

fold, fold, fold, fold, LP raises to 1,500.00, fold, fold, Hero raises to 4,000.00, fold, LP calls 2,500.00

Flop: (8950.00, 2 players) 8:heart: 6:club: A:spade:
Hero checks, LP bets 3,000.00, Hero ???

 

[Jillychemung]

Your stack is way to short to raise 42% of it and then fold on an A high flop. Get it all-in preflop here and you WANT those ragged Aces to call you all day, you're a 70-30 favorite.

 

[JohnBoyWWFC]

Call his bet then fold if your Q doesn't hit the turn and wait to cash. Easy.

 

[imwatcher]

Regardless of what i should have done preflop i want to hear your opinion on that flop, whether i should be open shoving, check/calling, check/folding or check/shoving (if i check/call i am committed anyway)

 

[Jillychemung]

Regardless of what i should have done preflop i want to hear your opinion on that flop, whether i should be

You have no FE after his bet and if you fold you'll have no FE at this table either, so shove and pray villain can lay down TPwK or that you hit a Q.

Then learn that when you have an M of 7.8 the only way you can't shove QQ preflop in this spot is if you have a 1000000000000% read that villain can only have AA/KK.

 

[imwatcher]

It was a crazy table and I wanted to get value in, people were raising very wide and alot of his range was folding to a shove, I know that is asking for a suckout but i needed a double at that time... as i said earlier i want to know here (tbh i am never folding) whether it is best just to shove, so you have FE or check to induce a bet... If i check here is it wrong to assume that he is going to bet with nearly any cards? especially in a crazy table in the DD

 

[straytfrush]

Even if he folds you gain a good % of your stack when you have an M that low. I would have shoved over him if you had a read that he was a loose guy. You only said the table was crazy, its individual people that matter though. If this guy was TAG at an otherwise crazy table it matters. If you thought he had a loose range I would have shoved over him in an instant. If he calls you can be reasonably sure you got your money in good. If he folds then you just gained some much needed chips.

 

[WiZZiM]

Call his bet then fold if your Q doesn't hit the turn and wait to cash. Easy.

What?


The effective blind level here is 400/800. You can raise small here to induce, but we're never ever folding postflop.

Easiest way is to just shove it pre, he may fold sometimes, but at least we can't make any mistakes postflop.

 

[imwatcher]

I think he was joking wiz, in an stt i would agree but in a crazy table which is stacking off with middle pair and stuff and in SUCH a HUGE field i think it was worth me taking some risks to try and get max value, you have to take risks regardless.. and i was inducing a shove.. maybe it was horrible not to shove there but i think it was okay if i think i am going to get great value from marginal hands.. even if sometimes i get stacked by an ace.. here is the rest of the hand... but i still want to know whether its better to check or open shove with this flop, in this situation regardless of what i did preflop and knowing that i am never folding..


Full Tilt - 250/500 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG+1: 43,479.00
MP: 67,831.00
MP+1: 13,246.00
LP: 19,380.00
CO: 33,526.00
BTN: 64,204.00
Hero (SB): 9,460.00
BB: 12,745.00
UTG: 15,035.00

UTG+1 posts ante 50.00, MP posts ante 50.00, MP+1 posts ante 50.00, LP posts ante 50.00, CO posts ante 50.00, BTN posts ante 50.00, Hero posts ante 50.00, BB posts ante 50.00, UTG posts ante 50.00, Hero posts SB 250.00, BB posts BB 500.00

Pre Flop: (1200.00) Hero has Q:club: Q:spade:

fold, fold, fold, fold, LP raises to 1,500.00, fold, fold, Hero raises to 4,000.00, fold, LP calls 2,500.00

Flop: (8950.00, 2 players) 8:heart: 6:club: A:spade:
Hero checks, LP bets 3,000.00, Hero raises to 5,410.00 and is all-in, LP calls 2,410.00

Turn: (19770.00, 2 players) 2:club:

River: (19770.00, 2 players) 8:club:

LP shows 7:diamond: 6:diamond: (Two Pair, Eights and Sixes)
Hero shows Q:club: Q:spade: (Two Pair, Queens and Eights)
Hero wins 19,770.00

 

[WiZZiM]

Check raising is going to always be better, if he has an ace, we're done for, if we check, how many outs do we give him if we are actually ahead? It's not many no matter what hand he has, so checking allows him to do something stupid, whereas shoving the flop we pretty much only get called by better hands, and some hands that may have called may be afriad of the ace.

 

[JohnBoyWWFC]

No, no, what I meant was call the flop bet. He bet 3k, so we have 2.4k behind if we call. Call it and hope to hit a Queen. If we don't hit a Q on the turn, we can fold if he pushes us all in and still have 2.4 k in chips. In the Daily Dollar, this is only just below starting stack, so we're not in bad shape.

 

[WiZZiM]

No, no, what I meant was call the flop bet. He bet 3k, so we have 2.4k behind if we call. Call it and hope to hit a Queen.??? If we don't hit a Q on the turn, we can fold if he pushes us all in and still have 2.4 k in chips. In the Daily Dollar, this is only just below starting stack, so we're not in bad shape.???

Huh?

We fold down to 2.4k?

Leaving us with around 2-3 effective BB's?

In a large field MTT?

If we make the raise to 4k here, we're committed and cannot fold any flop, calling the flop and folding turn is an absolutely horrible line. We may as well just fold the hand preflop if we take lines like this. Cashing shouldn't be our goal here, we double our money, yay. We have to aim for the final table and top spot positions if we ever want to make money long term. And if this players is as spazzy as OP mentions, he's going to be stacking off with less than an ace here pretty often, folding to this guy at any point is a mathematical nightmare.

 

[cjatud2012]

easiest shove pre-flop ever.

But since the question is on the flop, are you really gonna check/fold after putting < 40% of your stack in the pot? I feel like the only play is to shove. I guess you could check/call hoping to induce a bluff, that might be better. But either way, folding is really not an option imo.

 

[imwatcher]

easiest shove pre-flop ever.

But since the question is on the flop, are you really gonna check/fold after putting < 40% of your stack in the pot? I feel like the only play is to shove. I guess you could check/call hoping to induce a bluff, that might be better. But either way, folding is really not an option imo.

I understand that this should be a shove preflop... but you hadnt seen the table and how spazzy it was... i was getting short and i was willing to take a risk to try and double up with this.. no I was never contemplating folding but i put the question to you... if you are never folding I am trying to figure whether it is better to check to induce a bluff, or shove hoping that they fold something which they would suckout with.. or make them make the mistake chasing the straight there... as you can see from the results.. this table/player is extremely crazy and i wanted to make sure i would capatalise on that.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Regardless of what i should have done preflop i want to hear your opinion on that flop, whether i should be open shoving, check/calling, check/folding or check/shoving (if i check/call i am committed anyway)

(incidentally.. you do want to just shove pre... you'll get paid off by alot of hands you'll be losing value from on the flop.. ALSO, to any 'decent' player your 3bet for 2/5th of your stack will just look wayyyy too strong.. the shove will essentially look weaker & will get looked up by hands you're way ahead of (< which is exactly what you want!!!!)

 

[cjatud2012]

If the table was spazzy then this becomes more of a shove pre-flop, because you'll have an easier time collecting value from worse hands.

I do think check/raising or check/calling the flop is good, just because on ace high flops players won't be able to call a shove with those smaller pairs or broadway hands.

 

[imwatcher]

(incidentally.. you do want to just shove pre... you'll get paid off by alot of hands you'll be losing value from on the flop.. ALSO, to any 'decent' player your 3bet for 2/5th of your stack will just look wayyyy too strong.. the shove will essentially look weaker & will get looked up by hands you're way ahead of (< which is exactly what you want!!!!)

They werent decent players.. they would look and see oh i have to call 3k more, i may as well with KJ or 56 or pocket 2s or w/e but look at 9k more and instantly fold anything which isnt half decent, like maybe i would get calls from 7s+ A2+ K10+ QJ when i have seen people stacking off with middle pair, betting every time they have the chance etc i am willing to give them the room to think they can bluff me out of the hand.

I 100% agree that 95% of the time this is a shove here but (even for the daily dollar) this was the a very crazy kind of table. Maybe here i should have shoved, but i feel like with these players it is going to be worth the risk.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Seems realllllyyyyy weird though that they couldn't see that as bein REAL strong (I mean I'd consider flatting for deception on <20bb's.. instead of 3betting 2/5th which is obv never folding postflop).