$1.50 NLHE STT: Bad shove?

[Wickedestjr]

Nine player sit n go, top three cash. Ten minute levels.


Four players left. I am on the cutoff and dealt Ad 9s. My stack is 2643 with blinds of 100-200 with 20 ante. I am the shortest stack at the table, next shortest stack is the BB with about 200-300 more than me. BU and SB have been playing pretty tight, the SB loves slow playing but folds a lot too, and the BB is a little loose - he double-barrelled with bottom pair and probably calls this raise 35-40% of the time.

SB posts small blind of 100
BB posts big blind of 200
HERO raises to 400
BU folds
SB calls 400
BB calls 400

Three to the flop, POT = 1280
Dealing Flop (Ah,3h,Kc)
SB checks
BB bets 640
HERO shoves all in

There's obviously no way I'm just calling here, this bet is almost a third of my remaining stack. I thought there was a chance that BB had a lower ace or just a king.

Did I do anything wrong before the shove? Was the shove a bad move?

 

[toots babos]

Tough one....... you may have been in front when the chips went in but there's a possibility your opponent could have some sort of Kx hearts and after half potting the flop probably has no choice but to gamble.

Personally If I were in that exact same situation I'd probably shove it pre flop, pick up the blinds and probably then you would no longer had been the shorty and so a bit of pressure will have shifted onto the new short stack.

 

[suby_rafael]

I would have played the same. Don't see what else we could have done. Standard play i guess.

 

[micalupagoo]

I agree with toots and would shove pf,
you get the blinds or flip vs hopefully only one
13bbs and the bubble
could wait and try to get to the money, but thats stupid

 

[WiZZiM]

shove preflop works here, but opening is also ok if you are happy to put in really tough spots postflop..

once you flop a pair of aces you are never folding here, so wp post if you jam it over his pot bet.

Fwiw-

in bubble spots, it's generally better to take all in shove spots, ratehr than lose chips at vital times like this, but say 5-6 handed you can get away with more open raise spots rather than all in because you have a bit more time and is less damaging in terms of ICM to lose chips at that stage.

Since there is a 20 ante i think only play i would make here is to jam preflop.

 

[suby_rafael]

Guys why open shove pre flop ?? I think min raise is the best option because if either the button or small blind 3bets then that would be pretty strong and we can make a tight laydown here .. no ??

there's a possibility your opponent could have some sort of Kx hearts and after half potting the flop probably has no choice but to gamble.

If big blind flopped a king and is willing to risk his stack by donk betting and calling a shove we shouldn't mind that no ?? I think shoving pre is a bit risky, i don't mind it on the next blind level though ... guess i am really becoming a knit .. lol.

 

[WiZZiM]

depends on the opposition behind mate, we only have 13 true BB and when we account for antes we have like 11.5bb or so, which makes it into push/fold terriotry. The key here is losing chips by taking this postflop is worth less than the value we gain from letting players make mistakes with hands like JT or whatever.

Also the other thing here is at this buyin level it's highly possible players can call with worse hands than our A9.

So while i dont think open raising is bad, the standard play (which is also highly proven to be profitable) is to just jam this in.

Keep in mind we are the smallest stack at this table, and our equity is also the smallest, I would cahnge my opinion based on one or two stacks being smaller than ours in this same exact spot, so it really depends on the stack sizes, but with smallest stack, we have the least equity to protect and thus taking these big all in shoves is really less risky.

For one quick example say there is a stack of 1k in play also, i would then think raise/fold to jams is a better play, as our equity in the tournament is much higher and we have a lot more to lose in an all in situation

 

[Wickedestjr]

Thanks for the responses!

I considered shoving, but I chose to call, because the button was playing very conservative - so I expected to either steal the pot or see a flop in position. If I was in the blinds, I would have shoved for sure, but shoving from the cutoff seems to waste that advantage. That WAS my thinking, but this conversation is making me reconsider.

WiZZiM, do you think I should be shoving pre with every raisable hand? Would shoving pre still be the right move with a hand like AK, KQ, or AQ?

I have been hearing a lot about ICM recently, but haven’t used it before. Maybe I should check it out.

By the way, this was the result;
SB folds
BB calls all in
BB shows (Ks,As)
HERO shows (Ad,9s)
Dealing Turn (2c)
Dealing River (Kh)
= Bust

 

[Michael Paler]

Guys why open shove pre flop ?? I think min raise is the best option because if either the button or small blind 3bets then that would be pretty strong and we can make a tight laydown here .. no ??

If big blind flopped a king and is willing to risk his stack by donk betting and calling a shove we shouldn't mind that no ?? I think shoving pre is a bit risky, i don't mind it on the next blind level though ... guess i am really becoming a knit .. lol.

Why? Short stack, late position, short stack, decent ace, short stack,....did I mention short stack?

You wait for better than A9 in LP with 10 bigs, your not going to get far.

 

[WiZZiM]

Two players being tight makes this a little closer, but with the BB being very loose it still makes open raising pretty iffy imo. (edit failed to read the OP properly forgot what went on in the hand)


It's always a good idea to look at The downside of min raising and c-betting flops isn't that severe so it's by no means a bad play, 2200 postflop and pot will be 900 we can c-bet to 500 and be left with 1700 if it fails, which is a shoveable stack for sure, however it's still a bit of a spew and forces us into a clear short stack which means we will bubble more often.

With hands like AK etc, they typically hit more flops and run better postflop, you can also raise/call an allin with those hands more easily, which makes open raising better, however if i had loose calling players behind (which typically these games have) then i still open jam in this specific spot for value.

The other key thing jamming allows us to do is that it keeps our gameplan way more simple/streamlined which in turn will allow us to multitable more, which of course in micros leads to a much better $/hour even though we miss out on plays which might be slightly more profitable overall the higher volume and amount of tables played will help us make way more money and let us move up in stakes quicker.

 

[trent32la]

Shove pre. As played, you have to stack off here.

 

[Jacki Burkhart]

Shove pre. As played you can never fold. If he has a better A than you it just unlucky.

The key to bubble spots in SnGs is shove light call tight. You're not really trying to see flops at this stage. It's generally a blinds battle until 2 strong hands clash or an inexperienced player mixes it up with some wild plays.

Min raising with the intent of folding to a shove is generally a recipe for disaster at these blinds.

 

[bobrook]

I would not play the hand in this case, just because of the fact that the BB is loose. I would look for a better spot, but if I did play the hand it would be just as you did.

 

[Ambur]

Stack off pre is okish!

minbet vs dynamics+structure? I do not get it - beyond my mind!