$1.50 NLHE MTT: $$1.50 NLHE MTT: Line check - flopping the nuts, board runs out scary

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spr0ck3t

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$1.50 NLHE MTT: $$1.50 NLHE MTT: Line check - flopping the nuts, board runs out scary

Hi all

Had a tough spot at a table tonight, and would love a line check - I haven't posted a hand for review here in a While, so please bear with if I don't do it right (I took a break from poker for a bit). I am also terrible - so roast away, please!


Winning Poker, Hold'em No Limit - 900/1,800 (225 ante) - 8 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

OSTEE (UTG): 175,097 (97 bb)
TomsBestAce (UTG+1): 100,987 (56 bb)
kutya (MP): 54,119 (30 bb)
deonbrock99 (MP+1): 52,244 (29 bb)
spr0ck3t (CO): 74,748 (42 bb)
stripedbass (BU): 46,632 (26 bb)
Zdislav (SB): 80,075 (44 bb)
TlingitWarrior (BB): 40,172 (22 bb)

Pre-Flop: (4,500) Hero (spr0ck3t) is CO with Q 9
OSTEE (UTG) calls 1,800, 3 players fold, spr0ck3t (CO) calls 1,800, 1 fold, Zdislav (SB) calls 900, TlingitWarrior (BB) checks

Thoughts - villain has been playing/limping the majority of hands, the table has been letting limps get through regularly, and I have position. I think this is enough in the bottom-middle of my range to not raise.

Flop: (9,000) T J 8 (4 players)
Zdislav (SB) checks, TlingitWarrior (BB) checks, OSTEE (UTG) bets 6,750, spr0ck3t (CO) calls 6,750, Zdislav (SB) calls 6,750, TlingitWarrior (BB) folds

Well, this is a pretty nice flop. I think I want to just smooth call here and try to keep players in - I have the absolute nuts and the board even came out rainbow.

Turn: (29,250) A (3 players)
Zdislav (SB) bets 18,000, OSTEE (UTG) folds, spr0ck3t (CO) calls 18,000

I'm now paranoid about exactly KQ even though I block it and I don't think v is limping it. I'm hoping V caught the ace, is still value betting a decent jack, or sometimes 2 pair/a set. I think maybe I should raise here, but I'm not sure what else I'm raising with besides ax for 2 pair, maybe a flopped set hoping they caught the ace, KQ myself, or maybe some straight draws that haven't improved as a semi-bluff.

River: (65,250) 8 (2 players)
Zdislav (SB) checks, spr0ck3t (CO) checks

Villain has been playing a little odd previously IMO but I think he's definitely capable of check-raising here, and I really don't want to be check-raised. Any 8x 2 pair just got there, any sets just got there, KQ has already been there. I think v would maybe check call AT, AJ, TJ, but I don't know what else they're showing up with here that will call a bet. I feel like if I bet big, I'm not getting called by worse very often, and if I bet small, I'm inviting a c/r that I'm not thrilled about. I decide to check, but I'm not happy about it.

Total pot: 65,250

Showdown:
Zdislav (SB) shows 7 9 (a straight, Seven to Jack)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 26%, Flop: 7%, Turn: 3%, River: 0%)

spr0ck3t (CO) shows Q 9 (a straight, Eight to Queen)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 74%, Flop: 93%, Turn: 97%, River: 100%)

spr0ck3t (CO) wins 65,250

Obviously in hindsight I'm wishing I found a way to get all the money in, but I never even considered 79o and I'm sure I would've felt like a genius if v shook his fist and tabled a full house. Could I have gotten more value here?
 
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fundiver199

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Thanks for posting this hand, its definitely an interesting one.

Preflop
I think, limping behind here is certainly +EV, but I prefer to put in an isolation raise especially on a passive table, where its unlikely, someone else will put in a 3-bet. By iso-raising you get the huge whale heads up to yourself a lot of the time, you can feel much more confident, when you flop a pair, and you can bluff.

Multiway you are usually totally depending on smashing the board with 2 pair +, because even in position this is the only way to win the pot. So I dont see any value in limping and letting two other players realise their equity for free or very cheap. And who knows maybe even the whale will sometimes limp-fold, which is great for you.

I also do this for the metagame. I want to be that annoying player, who always raise up limps, so that whales see me as a "bully" and start to fight back at some point. This is basically how, I have made a lot of the money, I have won in poker over the years, so its more of a general concept and not just about this specific hand.

Flop
You flopped the nuts great! Here my plan is to raise and then jam almost any turn, so I can make it a two street game. A straight is not a hand, you ever want to slowplay, because it can not improve, so your situation can only get worse, when more cards roll off. In this spot basically any card higher than a 6 is bad, because it will either kill action or create the potential for hands better than yours.

Also this is a 1,5$ tournament, so most likely all these players are bad, and even those, who are not involved yet, might still come along facing a bet and a raise in front of them. There are so many hands, that connect with this board, and which they probably can not fold. Someone could have a pair + OESD, they could have two pair, etc.

Turn
Yes now you lose to KQ, and there is a donk bet from a player in the blinds. There is not much point in slowplaying the nuts and then fastplaying, when your situation got worse, so as played I agree with just calling now.

River
He check to you, and while he might sometimes be trapping, this is a sign of weakness. You have less than a pot sized bet left, so as played I would still get it in now and hope to get paid by a hand like AJ or AT perhaps.

Results
The lower straight is not a hand, I would put him on, as he played, but it just goes to show, how much value you missed by not raising that flop with the nuts. Never slowplay in the micros, unless you have an absolutely unbeatable hand like quads. You missed heaps of value here by letting cards roll off for no reason, and this is the main point to take away from the hand.
 
Jon Poker

Jon Poker

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I dont see the scary runout here - you block KQ - which is a combo that should not be limping preflop - if someone had a set they should be raising this flop for protection and value seeing as this board can change on alot of turn cards.

When villan donks out into two opponents this should indicate alot of strength - for that reason i would raise this flop. Lots of drawing hands and 2 pair combos that can call our raise and continue on this board - plus alot of turn cards that can freeze the action up and allow us to no longer get value from our hand.

In hindsight - not that we knew it - but raising flop would have also gotten the 2nd nuts (villan with 79) to probably 3bet us and stack off with a worse hand - as played they get to lose the minimum.

As played - the flop call if fine to keep other hands in - but i would raise for value given the lead into multiple should indicate strength.

Since we don't, when the other villan barrels turn into two of us - it does get weird and even tho we block KQ, we surely don't want yo get raised and run into what is now the nuts.

When villan checks river - i think i am value betting small. Villan should never check a full house here, they shouldn't be checking KQ here - so when they check i really suspect that we have the best hand and would bet something like 10k - if we get raised its almost a spot we should never be good in and we should probably just fold because the only hands raising us should be KQ and FHs. Other made hands are only calling. The check to get to showdown isn't the worst option because of that weird turn lead - but the check on the river REALLY makes me feel like we are good here on the river.
 
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spr0ck3t

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Thanks jon, fundiver - missing value is one of my biggest issues right now, and I didn't even think about setting up a jam on later streets (will blame being rusty), so hopefully I learn some lessons from this hand.
 
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Sidetracked

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It does look like you lost a lot of value there. With that flop, and as many players in the pot as there were, I think you could have played the nuts faster, and obviously 2nd nut straight guy would have come along for the ride.
 
jaworek1405

jaworek1405

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Hello, I think that you played this hand correctly on the flop and on the turn. Pre flop limp is good even somebody will isolate limpers we can call small isolation. Yes, in this situation possible is better straight on the turn, bet on the turn is over 50% of the pot and opponent can represent better straight, so on the turn I play call, because of his big bet. The river card - I don't see to any reason to scary of better straight or full house. Yes the flop is a little dangerous for your straight, but if I were opponent I don't scary a full house and with hand like KQo I would bet for value. So when opponent check on the river it means for me a weakness and I prefer bet on the river for value. I think even if opponent slow play something, better straight or full house it can hurt us, it is cooler and it happens sometimes. Sometimes we lose against better straight, but I think we have to risk on the river. GL :)
 
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300HPGOD

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Pre flop is an interesting spot which I think depends on the players that are left to act. If they are passive players I really like limping as you did because your hand is not that strong but had connectivity and is suited so it is far from hopeless when the flop comes. If however the players behind you are aggro then I would probably lean towards folding. I get the argument to raise and isolate here but I feel to ensure we get it heads up we have to err on the bigger bet side and I dont like putting a lot of chips in this pot where I dont have a strong hand, I can still get screwed by a 3 bet behind and if the initial limper calls I cant range him at all. I would only be raising this pre flop to try to take it down there and steal. Otherwise I like the over limp to see the flop with this type of hand.

On the flop, I agree with the over call. Here we flopped the nuts on a rainbow board and we are only worried about a Q, K or A hitting the turn. Even one of those hits does not mean we are done since a Q would need AK (unlikely because no pre flop aggression from anyone), AQ (unlikely for same reason of AK) and KQ which would be possible but we block. I would not be scared in this specific spot and my intention would be to call, and then have the initial better lead again on the turn where then I would be jamming over. It is an added bonus that we get the SB to call. One other note I will make here is that we started this hand with 40 BBs. I would not be folding this hand or even consider folding it after we flop the world unless it is runner, runner to trips the board with an existing card on the board or turn and river is 2 of 3 A, K or Q. If my plan worked the way I would want it to I would not have to worry about this because I fully plan on getting the chips in on the turn. If it was checked to me on the turn I would be betting very large which would commit us. Either way I am getting committed to this pot on the turn.

The turn as played is an easy jam. The ace is not the best card but like I said I was planning to jam basically any turn card assuming we were bet into. KQ beats us but we have a Q blocker plus we are at the stage (in my opinion anyway) of if they have it, they have it. I would be jamming over this here and would assume I am getting called a lot and almost exclusively it will be a worse hand that is not drawing well if at all against ours.

On the river as played you need to be getting your chips in. If villain just made a full house they will not be checking in that spot, they will be jamming. If they actually have the KQ then you can jam here and turn your hand into a bluff (not saying they do, I am just saying this bet has at least a little merge bet in it) and if they have anything else then you probably will still get a call. They have 1/3rd of their chips from the start of the hand in the pot. Villain will be calling here with any two pair or better and will call with any Ace. They might even call with Jx here (you never know). This should be a clear jam as you can really rule out the boat, you might even get the one hand that could beat you to fold (I am saying might as I doubt they fold but its possible), and you can get called by a lot of worse hands. Checking there really forfeited a lot of value.
 
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spr0ck3t

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Pre flop is an interesting spot which I think depends on the players that are left to act. If they are passive players I really like limping as you did because your hand is not that strong but had connectivity and is suited so it is far from hopeless when the flop comes. If however the players behind you are aggro then I would probably lean towards folding. I get the argument to raise and isolate here but I feel to ensure we get it heads up we have to err on the bigger bet side and I dont like putting a lot of chips in this pot where I dont have a strong hand, I can still get screwed by a 3 bet behind and if the initial limper calls I cant range him at all. I would only be raising this pre flop to try to take it down there and steal. Otherwise I like the over limp to see the flop with this type of hand.

On the flop, I agree with the over call. Here we flopped the nuts on a rainbow board and we are only worried about a Q, K or A hitting the turn. Even one of those hits does not mean we are done since a Q would need AK (unlikely because no pre flop aggression from anyone), AQ (unlikely for same reason of AK) and KQ which would be possible but we block. I would not be scared in this specific spot and my intention would be to call, and then have the initial better lead again on the turn where then I would be jamming over. It is an added bonus that we get the SB to call. One other note I will make here is that we started this hand with 40 BBs. I would not be folding this hand or even consider folding it after we flop the world unless it is runner, runner to trips the board with an existing card on the board or turn and river is 2 of 3 A, K or Q. If my plan worked the way I would want it to I would not have to worry about this because I fully plan on getting the chips in on the turn. If it was checked to me on the turn I would be betting very large which would commit us. Either way I am getting committed to this pot on the turn.

The turn as played is an easy jam. The ace is not the best card but like I said I was planning to jam basically any turn card assuming we were bet into. KQ beats us but we have a Q blocker plus we are at the stage (in my opinion anyway) of if they have it, they have it. I would be jamming over this here and would assume I am getting called a lot and almost exclusively it will be a worse hand that is not drawing well if at all against ours.

On the river as played you need to be getting your chips in. If villain just made a full house they will not be checking in that spot, they will be jamming. If they actually have the KQ then you can jam here and turn your hand into a bluff (not saying they do, I am just saying this bet has at least a little merge bet in it) and if they have anything else then you probably will still get a call. They have 1/3rd of their chips from the start of the hand in the pot. Villain will be calling here with any two pair or better and will call with any Ace. They might even call with Jx here (you never know). This should be a clear jam as you can really rule out the boat, you might even get the one hand that could beat you to fold (I am saying might as I doubt they fold but its possible), and you can get called by a lot of worse hands. Checking there really forfeited a lot of value.



Thanks - I really appreciate seeing your thought process through this hand!

I think I still need to get more comfortable coming up with lines that involve jams for value without the nuts; I'm definitely too passive in those spots and it's costing me. I'm more comfortable with small ball pots, and especially with turbo structures and the like I know I need to be chipping up faster than that.

Not to mention all the implications for cash games

Thanks again!
 
fletchdad

fletchdad

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I have not looked at the showdown spoiler.

Personally, I dont like limping behind. I know I seem to be in the minority here reading other comments. But you still have 3 players to follow and any of them could punish with a raise and then you pretty much have to fold unless you want to get all tricky (not my idea of a good play) and re-raise. If I stay in this hand as you described I am raising or folding. Flop and turn ok, I guess.

I am thinking range here. Sure, KQ is in his range but you said he limps a lot, so I am thinking we are golden OTF, and can simply call down.

I also agree with your call OTR, BUT.... Do you think he would call a raise with a set, or overpair/2 pair type hand? He literally has only one hand that beats us, and his range is soooo wide. I think you missed some value. Also, perhaps raising the turn is an option, but this is all read dependant. If you know he is folding to a raise then calling OTF and OTT is fine, but I would have bet that river.

Now I am gonna look at the outcome.
 
Viparida

Viparida

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Well, i think you missed the chance to increase the value of your hand in the river. After he bet the turn it was obviously that he didn`t have a full house, so the only hand that would beat you would be KQ but i don`t think he would have it either or he probably would have just checked the turn.
 
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