$1.20 NLHE Turbo: Insta- re raise, fold KK?

[ben_rhyno]

$1.20 NL HE Turbo: Insta- re raise, fold KK?

pokerstars Game #40908500537: Tournament #250934037, $1.00+$0.20 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2010/03/09 18:34:21 UTC [2010/03/09 13:34:21 ET]
Table '250934037 1' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 3: 21Chance21 (1455 in chips)
Seat 4: ben-rhyno (4165 in chips)
Seat 5: davekoolest (1175 in chips)
Seat 7: cafaca (3630 in chips)
Seat 8: inoiretable (1175 in chips)
Seat 9: Ponks111 (1900 in chips)
Ponks111: posts small blind 25
21Chance21: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ben-rhyno [Kh] [Ks]
ben-rhyno: raises 200 to 250
davekoolest: folds
cafaca: calls 250
inoiretable: folds
Ponks111: folds
21Chance21: folds
*** FLOP *** [Td] [6h] [Ts]
ben-rhyno: bets 350
cafaca: raises 350 to 700
ben-rhyno:

Another tricky situation I got myself into.
What are we doing with the re-raise here?
Flat call? Shove? Fold?
And why?

 

[ChuckTs]

Never ever ever ever ever ever ever fold.

You're afraid of Tx, 66 and the unlikely AA. I'm not entirely sure what a minraise represents on a dry board like this, but there are so few combos of made hands that have you beat (and made hands that raise for value here) that I'm inclined to flat and let him keep bluffing/value betting worse hands. For example he might minraise 44 here but fold to a shove, but may bet turn when checked to.

This just comes down to your experience with these stakes and how to weight a minraise from an unknown player - more for value or more as a bluff?

If it's more for value, then just get it in. You don't want 99 raising, getting called by you, then shutting down on an ace turn.

If it's more as a bluff, then let him put his stack in.

 

[ben_rhyno]

I did flat, Turn comes an Ace.
Then he put just 50 in, I raised it up to 450, and he shoves. I thought for a long time, but folded. Bad decision I feel.

 

[ChuckTs]

What's your reasoning for raising the turn?

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

Ewww, dont flat this flop man, neverrrr, look at your stack size, and youve put 950 in, pre is fine, then on the flop you make a decision there and then, you reshove or fold.

Fwiw, his min raise is screaming value, and he probably does have a 10, but its still mathematically incorrect to fold, i shove this flop alllll dayy, beucause im pretty sure, hes shoving 77 88 99 JJ QQ all in his range.

You have no choice but to shove flop, if he flips over A10, which seems likely, its just a sick cooler and you move on

Edit: Reconsidering the hand and considering both your stack sizes, i stick to what i said, but also, its a very standard play for a player who you have covered but he has everyone else on the table covered to min raise that dry board, thinking you have overs and that he can get you off.

Either way

Shove Flop (Or open shove pre due to it being a turbo, but i prefer what you did pre)

 

[Poker Orifice]

Ewww, dont flat this flop man, neverrrr, look at your stack size, and youve put 950 in, pre is fine, then on the flop you make a decision there and then, you reshove or fold.

Fwiw, his min raise is screaming value, and he probably does have a 10, but its still mathematically incorrect to fold, i shove this flop alllll dayy, beucause im pretty sure, hes shoving 77 88 99 JJ QQ all in his range.

You have no choice but to shove flop, if he flips over A10, which seems likely, its just a sick cooler and you move on

Edit: Reconsidering the hand and considering both your stack sizes, i stick to what i said, but also, its a very standard play for a player who you have covered but he has everyone else on the table covered to min raise that dry board, thinking you have overs and that he can get you off.

Either way

Shove Flop (Or open shove pre due to it being a turbo, but i prefer what you did pre)

Why would we shove this flop? (do we want worse hands to fold.. hands we get value from?). I disagree with thinking along these lines.. look at both of our stacks... villain typically won't want to phuck w us, nor do we need to cripple ourselves. Villain could very easily be on say JJ, QQ (are they flatting pre w AA?... maybe??) and their 'min-raise' might be what they're doing when anticipating you're c-betting something like AK & are going to give it up to their min-raise. (does AA min-raise the flop?).

ON the turn when villain 'minbets'.. why are we raising here? We've just turned a strong hand with great showdown value into a bluff.

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

Which is why we shove flop, because there are so many calling hand sin Villains range, yes we want value, but we have already earned 650 from this one hand, and we dont want to risk scare cards like the A on the turn. It is a shove on the flop imo.

You have to take into consideration its the fact that its a turbo and a $2 MTT orifice, the players are most of the time not good, you seem to over estimate their ability. Villain is probably calling in this spot with 33. We just cant afford to see scares on the turn.

I either shove flop or 3 bet to about 2k, then if he re shoves, maybe we can fold leaving a good amount back, but i still probably call due to his range being behind of our hand most the time

 

[ben_rhyno]

I raised the turn as I didn't know if he had the 10 or A or not, and I feel his shove told me i was beat, so i folded. Went on to win, so not all bad, but caught him bluffing when it was down to last 3 with 23 on a broadway flop when i hit top 2

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

I raised the turn as I didn't know if he had the 10 or A or not, and I feel his shove told me i was beat, so i folded. Went on to win, so not all bad, but caught him bluffing when it was down to last 3 with 23 on a broadway flop when i hit top 2

Nice win. If like in this situation he made a play on you earlier in the tournament and then makes a similar one later to be looked up and to be shown bluffing, it might help you in the future just to note that down.

 

[ben_rhyno]

Yeh I did note it, but realised after this he reraised every raise I made, so I calle dhim all the way on this last hand and trusted my reads, which turned out to be correct.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Which is why we shove flop, because there are so many calling hand sin Villains range, yes we want value, but we have already earned 650 from this one hand, and we dont want to risk scare cards like the A on the turn. It is a shove on the flop imo.

I completely disagree. Granted I'm not well-versed with typical play in a $1mtt so it'd be difficult to adjust to the thinking (ie. to even consider that villain could be on AT blows me away.... are they really that bad??... do they not consider risk vs. reward... do they not understand that a tournament cannot be won in the first few levels??)... BUT... I think we lose a ton of value by shoving on the flop.

 

[FTP_TheNuts]

I completely disagree. Granted I'm not well-versed with typical play in a $1mtt so it'd be difficult to adjust to the thinking (ie. to even consider that villain could be on AT blows me away.... are they really that bad??... do they not consider risk vs. reward... do they not understand that a tournament cannot be won in the first few levels??)... BUT... I think we lose a ton of value by shoving on the flop.

A10 lol, you'd be surprised at that, it would surpise me if villain turns over A4

Seriously, they are ridiculously bad, do they consider risk vs reward? No, this is what they consider

ZOMG ACE ALL IN!!!!

 

[ben_rhyno]

This is true. I try to play a mathematically sound game, but it's difficult to play a proper game against a lot of the idiots playing at this level who can't let any ace go

 

[baudib1]

This is true. I try to play a mathematically sound game, but it's difficult to play a proper game against a lot of the idiots playing at this level who can't let any ace go

raise more preflop, value bet them, don't pay them off when they hit, and gleefully stack off pre with AK.