How to spot a bot?

Odysseus101

Odysseus101

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Hello Chatters, I'm trying to learn how to spot a poker bot. What do you know about this subject? Can we be analytical and objective rather than say "I lost on bullets, it must have been against a site bot!", anecdotal evidence isn't evidence.
Has anyone made a study of this? Are any sites well known to have site bots which are there to bump the betting and rake, or player bots trying to make a buck or simply play to tie in order to gain loyalty rewards? Are any sites known to engage in outright fraud with it's own bots?

I don't want to use a bot myself. Poker is a hobby for me, more interesting than video games. I don't play every day and I'm not in it to make a living. Rather, I'm trying to get better for when I play with my friends live. And playing against bots isn't helping in that of course. Plus I don't want to lose money if I don't have to online.

I play microstakes mostly, so is it likely that bots would even be at this level?
 
Moonchild

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To begin with, I think there are not a lot of bots on the big pokersites, like pokerstars. They have to much reputation to hold up to, so they invest alot in keeping the game safe. That being said, where there's money, there are cheaters.

If you are a 'normal' player and not a big mathematic genius, statisticus, ITman and not willing to spend alot of time in studying the statistics of some weird playing pokerguys, I don't think you can spot someone using a bot. Especially when you play microstakes, you will always find players that do crazy shit and play very loosely.

As a normal player, I would not worry about this issue, assuming you play on a big pokersite with a good reputation. Great players, saftetyteams and statistic genius will find this people and ban them from playing.

On this issue: https://www.pokernews.com/news/2015/06/pokerstars-and-players-react-to-the-bot-scandal-21935.htm
 
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Sourtubbie

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I am more prone to looking for collusion than bots but I spend more time on the big sites that are not as rampant. The one obvious sign is timing and they tend to take the exact same amount of time every hand and they fold to funny sizing bets.
Like the pot is swelled in a 2NL game to say $1.40 and you minbet .02 and they fold. I love those bots!
Besides that I am not good at looking for them,tend to just leave if the table dynamics are not running normally.
 
Odysseus101

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As a normal player, I would not worry about this issue, assuming you play on a big pokersite with a good reputation. Great players, saftetyteams and statistic genius will find this people and ban them from playing.

On this issue: https://www.pokernews.com/news/2015/06/pokerstars-and-players-react-to-the-bot-scandal-21935.htm

Thanks for that link Moonchild, very interesting stuff. Sadly, sore losers will always scream about cheating and rigging. But that doesn't mean that they are wrong either. We're about to see that in the US election, right?
 
Odysseus101

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The one obvious sign is timing and they tend to take the exact same amount of time every hand and they fold to funny sizing bets.
Like the pot is swelled in a 2NL game to say $1.40 and you minbet .02 and they fold. I love those bots!
Besides that I am not good at looking for them,tend to just leave if the table dynamics are not running normally.

That happened to me on a small tournament I played last night. I can't remember if it was on PS or 888. One player always took exactly the same amount of time to act. Other players started calling at the player on table chat, but no response. It was very weird, and it would occasionally fold at strange times or to very low raises. I find this very concerning, to see a bot at a very low stakes table or freeroll.
 
Moonchild

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That happened to me on a small tournament I played last night. I can't remember if it was on PS or 888. One player always took exactly the same amount of time to act. Other players started calling at the player on table chat, but no response. It was very weird, and it would occasionally fold at strange times or to very low raises. I find this very concerning, to see a bot at a very low stakes table or freeroll.

Hmmm ... listening to your quote, I am not that sure it was a bot. You say he always took exactly the same amount of time to act. Did you time it? And on very low stakes or freeroll games, I see a lot of weird playing. Most of the time I presume it is just beginners play. And about the chat: that is not weird too. It could be that he had his chat turned of, did not speak English, was not willing to chat, ...There are times that players try to 'talk' with me, call out names ... and I don't respond.

I see so many players getting suspicious on the table while there a many posibilities of some weird playing.
 
vic88888

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I play on Clubwpt and to be honest some of the user names are quite odd. In my opinion there are bots galore on that site.
 
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PLAYFUL1

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Here a bot there a bot everywhere a bot bot lol
 
dino

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depends where are you playing at.
If you suspect "bot activity" that means this site is not secure enough.
Usually, you can see their session, if it's over 5-6 hrs, then it's bot, and pay attention to bet/raise/fold... it always take same amount of time (2-3) seconds to respond, and usually it doesn't chat at all.
You can beat them overbetting and re-raising ...
Just a few pointers.
 
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Some people say that is really hard to make a really god bot at the tables because it doesn't perform exclusive play whatsover, but the way the artificial intelligence develops extremely rapidly, im afraid that it wont be long until they bring a super bot at our tables, in that scenario days of online play are over, at least for me :/
 
Odysseus101

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Some people say that is really hard to make a really god bot at the tables because it doesn't perform exclusive play whatsover, but the way the artificial intelligence develops extremely rapidly, im afraid that it wont be long until they bring a super bot at our tables, in that scenario days of online play are over, at least for me :/

Sure, but who's to say that we aren't already there? The pointers about spotting a bot aren't very applicable to Zoom tables where you play on a new table each hand. And surely there's money to be made there by consistent and conservative play. Are we supposed to trust the site when they say that they are watching actively and using the "latest detection software"? I have doubts about that.

As well, there are plenty of allegations out there (not just from sore losers) that the site will run bots to ramp up the betting and thus the rake, and that it's easy for the bot and the site to collude of course. If the site is in Malta or The Isle of Man, there's nobody to investigate or prosecute either.

I'm not a great player by any stretch, and I'm no conspiracy theorist. But I'm very concerned about this issue. Where there's a buck to be made by cheating, someone will cheat, either player or site or both. We play poker because we assume that the game isn't "rigged", unlike nearly any casino game where the house will always win over time, and a good/lucky player can hit it big.
 
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Actually I believe a site called Titan Poker was really bad a well back with the bots. Its not a made up issue and it does exist but the extent is different on smaller sites compared to bigger ones.
There are great guides if you feel you are facing cheating to see if it fits any of the criteria for being a bot. Just do some google searches.
 
Odysseus101

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Thanks, I haven't played Titan or Full Tilt in years. Have you lately? Does it feel right to you?
 
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I haven't learned a lot abot boats.
 
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I think there are many room's bots in disciplines where exists frequent need to preflop or flop shoving. Turbo-hyper tournaments, spins, fifties. Easy for room's randomizer to put needed outs to own bot. Watch for orange line (all-in EV) in tracker graph after playing spins. More often you will see it above green line (net won). It means that all-ins more resolve in favor of the room's bots, or fishes, that pokersites love too.
 
Odysseus101

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Hmmm ... listening to your quote, I am not that sure it was a bot. You say he always took exactly the same amount of time to act. Did you time it? And on very low stakes or freeroll games, I see a lot of weird playing. Most of the time I presume it is just beginners play. And about the chat: that is not weird too. It could be that he had his chat turned of, did not speak English, was not willing to chat, ...There are times that players try to 'talk' with me, call out names ... and I don't respond.

I see so many players getting suspicious on the table while there a many posibilities of some weird playing.

I did find it weird to suspect that there was a bot playing on a low level tourney, whether freeroll or cheap/free ticket MTT. But maybe that's the point, to win smaller cash prizes, or tickets to larger tournaments, in a format which will not attract suspicion. Arguably, if I had a decent bot I'd only use it on microstakes and freerolls and zoom MTTs and cash tables so that the attention and suspicion are lower.

About timing, the player would wait until exactly before the time bank was activated. On PS, that's when the timer bar restarts in orange/red colour and a countdown appears. Every time, just as the initial time bar ran out. It was very strange. Who plays like that? If you're getting into the later stages and want to run down the clock so as to maintain a spot in the "winning" top spots, you'd wait longer. Wouldn't you?
 
Odysseus101

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I think there are many room's bots in disciplines where exists frequent need to preflop or flop shoving. Turbo-hyper tournaments, spins, fifties. Easy for room's randomizer to put needed outs to own bot. Watch for orange line (all-in EV) in tracker graph after playing spins. More often you will see it above green line (net won). It means that all-ins more resolve in favor of the room's bots, or fishes, that pokersites love too.

That sounds very interesting, but I didn't understand it all. Can you explain in some more detail? Is there a place on PS to look at the stats you're referring to? Or am I misunderstanding you?
 
mammadduke

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when people start saying its a bot.. which I then assume that the site is using a player that is like robot I guess..i ususally don't call or play in the hand if it calls or if it raises in freerolls and I do notice it does take a certain amount of time each time..and I have learned the hard way that no matter how good my hand is.. I lose..
 
Odysseus101

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when people start saying its a bot.. which I then assume that the site is using a player that is like robot I guess..i ususally don't call or play in the hand if it calls or if it raises in freerolls and I do notice it does take a certain amount of time each time..and I have learned the hard way that no matter how good my hand is.. I lose..

But that means that the site itself is cheating the players actively, right? Either the site bot is there to passively "break even" and bump the betting for the site to earn a higher rake (on a cash game), or the bot is in cahoots with the site to actively screw the players. Those are very different scenarios, and different from players using a bot to play for them.

And if the prizes on a MTT are very low, ie tickets to other tournaments or tiny cash prizes on a freeroll, why would the site have a bot at all? Maybe on cash games I can see it. But on the freerolls and cheap/free ticket entry MTTs, if there's a bot it only makes sense that it would be a player's bot and not the site's. Or am I overthinking it?
 
milka1605

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But that means that the site itself is cheating the players actively, right? Either the site bot is there to passively "break even" and bump the betting for the site to earn a higher rake (on a cash game), or the bot is in cahoots with the site to actively screw the players. Those are very different scenarios, and different from players using a bot to play for them.

And if the prizes on a MTT are very low, ie tickets to other tournaments or tiny cash prizes on a freeroll, why would the site have a bot at all? Maybe on cash games I can see it. But on the freerolls and cheap/free ticket entry MTTs, if there's a bot it only makes sense that it would be a player's bot and not the site's. Or am I overthinking it?

I believe that small freerolls with prize money site does not expose bots. And nobody puts. Out of that need. Bots are usually found in the cache table. In tournaments with big buy-less. At PokerStars constantly monitors the cache tables to clean them from bots. I personally chatting at the table came a message from the site system to give an answer to a question in the chat.Thus there is a check. If the player did not answer it may be banned. Thus one of the famous players was erroneously banned. He never enjoyed the chat.
 
Odysseus101

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I believe that small freerolls with prize money site does not expose bots. And nobody puts. Out of that need. Bots are usually found in the cache table. In tournaments with big buy-less. At PokerStars constantly monitors the cache tables to clean them from bots. I personally chatting at the table came a message from the site system to give an answer to a question in the chat.Thus there is a check. If the player did not answer it may be banned. Thus one of the famous players was erroneously banned. He never enjoyed the chat.

So PokerStars site will address a chat message at the player suspected of being a bot to see if it responds? I've never seen that. Very interesting. Do any other sites do this? How reliable are sites when they say that they have "the best and most rigorous safety software and checks" to spot cheating players or bots, I wonder?
 
10058765

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So PokerStars site will address a chat message at the player suspected of being a bot to see if it responds? I've never seen that. Very interesting. Do any other sites do this? How reliable are sites when they say that they have "the best and most rigorous safety software and checks" to spot cheating players or bots, I wonder?

Pokerstars do that, not only if they suspect you to be a bot.
I've had these messages in chat several times, Stars asking you to type in a given combination of digits.

It's not like you will be banned if you are not in time with your reaction, but after failing several times they might probably try to contact you....I'm not sure though.

I wouldn't worry about bots at Stars though, especially in the micro-games.
If there are any, chances you will have one at your table are quite slim and chances it will outplay you are even smaller because bots are just not good players......they're just software and software will not be able to beat a bunch of other players who all act in a different way.

A bot basically would work as a "IF-THEN" procedure which leaves it a very strict amount of options without room for adjustments.
We however, are not software and so have way more options to adjust to situations ,which should make us able to beat bots every single day.
 
dino

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how far I know, on PS, they will contact you few times, and if you do not answer and do what they ask for, they will block your money and you will have to clean desktop, and probably share your screen in some cases if they suspect you're cheating.
 
Odysseus101

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Is there any evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, of the site using bots to bump the site's rake? I know that people who get screwed by PS think that it's fixed and there's some evidence that the river isn't exactly random (or used to be), but does anyone have any info about the site using bots? On PS or other sites?
 
Moonchild

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Pokerstars do that, not only if they suspect you to be a bot.
I've had these messages in chat several times, Stars asking you to type in a given combination of digits.

It's not like you will be banned if you are not in time with your reaction, but after failing several times they might probably try to contact you....I'm not sure though.

I play on PS and never saw PS asking me to type something in the chat. And I play alot! And honestly I don't see how you spot bots with the chat. I hardly chat. A lot of players turn their chat of. And mostly, when I play, I don't have the chat open, but the info of the game ... even when people try to tickle me to talk, by saying whatever, I don't always respond, 'cause of the distraction.
 
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