So tell me. How do you feel about the programs, various support for poker. Holdem manager. Well, all allowed.

You think using HM or other support program is not fair ?
People using support programs are improving their game, they helps them analyze hands and other style of playing. Personaly ive never used any of those but they are not forbidden, then players using them.

Is it "fair", that some players pay for coaching or membership to expensive training sites, where they get teaching from world class pros, while others do not? At the end of the day, people who invest more time and money in working on their game away from the table will always have a advantage, and there is nothing unnatural about that. An athlete practicing 5 hours every day also has a better chance than one practicing 1 hour per week.

If you are thinking about HUDs specifically, then there are several sites, that dont allow their use. So if you dont want to use a HUD, you can play there and be sure, that most of your opponents (those that dont cheat) dont use one either.

Originally Posted by dzemer

You think using HM or other support program is not fair ?
People using support programs are improving their game, they helps them analyze hands and other style of playing. Personaly ive never used any of those but they are not forbidden, then players using them.

It's a little different. I believe that these programs do not develop a poker player. On the contrary, they make decision-making robots out of people. The basis of the criterion of acceptance, are the numbers. And I think it kills online poker.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

Is it "fair", that some players pay for coaching or membership to expensive training sites, where they get teaching from world class pros, while others do not? At the end of the day, people who invest more time and money in working on their game away from the table will always have a advantage, and there is nothing unnatural about that. An athlete practicing 5 hours every day also has a better chance than one practicing 1 hour per week.

If you are thinking about HUDs specifically, then there are several sites, that dont allow their use. So if you dont want to use a HUD, you can play there and be sure, that most of your opponents (those that dont cheat) dont use one either.

I'm talking about killing online poker. You also know that the database of players with their statistics are sold on the network. And in this situation, the game is no longer in favor of the player who plays honestly. Yes, and I didn't hear about people who bought HM often hear only about using hacked versions of HM. So actually, I wonder the opinion of other people.

Every time where is money there is people who want cheat. Holdem manager and poker rooms which share hand history make help to find this people (who cheating). Programs like holdem manager and poker tracker are very needed.

I have nothing against it. It is better to run in sneakers than barefoot

Originally Posted by Napalm

So tell me. How do you feel about the programs, various support for poker. Holdem manager. Well, all allowed.

It's not a problem. Even if you're on a site that doesn't allow programs like Hold 'Em Manager, there is nothing stopping you from observing how the regs in that game play, taking notes, and then using a paper HUD. It's like saying that thinking gives one an unfair advantage over the thoughtless.

Originally Posted by Napalm

It's a little different. I believe that these programs do not develop a poker player. On the contrary, they make decision-making robots out of people. The basis of the criterion of acceptance, are the numbers. And I think it kills online poker.

The conclusion doesn't follow the premise. HUDs "...make decision-making robots out of people". In other words, HUDs make fishes fishier when they "think" a HUD is the magic bullet to instant Poker success. They have another excuse to go on losing, and that's good for Poker (on-line or off).

Originally Posted by Napalm

It's a little different. I believe that these programs do not develop a poker player. On the contrary, they make decision-making robots out of people. The basis of the criterion of acceptance, are the numbers. And I think it kills online poker.

This is utter nonsense in my opinion. HUD-data are used for making exploitative adjustments to individual opponents. Like for instance folding AQ to a 3-bet, if someone has only been 3-betting 2% of the time but giving action, if its 10% of the time.

Which is just the same as, what people do in live poker. If some nit has been sitting there for hours without hardly playing a hand but suddenly wake up with a 3-bet, will people give him action light, of course not. But someone, who has been very active, will get lots of action.

The only thing, which the HUD does, is to help online players remember these details, even though they play maybe 10 times more hands per hour than live players. Its just like, you dont need instruments to assist you when riding a bicycle, but if you are in a airplane going 30 times as fast, you probably want some.

If anything make people play like "robots", its the modern GTO frenzy, which is supported by all the solver software available on the market and tought by many high stakes pros, none mentioned none forgotten. This and the AI software is also, what might eventually kill online poker, because it mean, that the most popular games are basically very close to being solved.

Originally Posted by Napalm

You also know that the database of players with their statistics are sold on the network.

This is against the TOS of any poker site, so you are talking about someone cheating. And yes this kind of cheating has happened. The most famous example is the guy, who busted Victor Bloom "Isildur" after obtaining and analyzing hands, he had played against other players.

Now that being said Isildur could have protected himself with some bankroll management and by not continuing to play heads up against the same player, which he was losing to. And he could also have chosen to not play nose bleed stakes in a game, which was new to him (Omaha).

At the end of the day Isildur was playing in such an unbalanced way, that it was only a matter of time, because someone found ways to exploit him back with or without purchased hand histories.

Also as someone playing the micros, this is not really something, that concern me at all. If someone is willing to break the rules to obtain all my hand histories, be my guest. The fields in the micros are so huge, that someone doing this with all their opponents will have no time left to play.

Removing hand histories, as PartyPoker has done, does take away this option to cheat. But it create a whole array of other ways to cheat, which are in the end way more serious and problematic.

For studies I think it's necessary. Recently PartyPoker banned this type of tool. At the tables can be fairer, but this is sure and harmful for those who are seeking to study the game.

Originally Posted by Marowin

Every time where is money there is people who want cheat. Holdem manager and poker rooms which share hand history make help to find this people (who cheating). Programs like holdem manager and poker tracker are very needed.

Yes, there is an example. When I played 888 no Deposit. I played the welcome bonus, and I was getting ready to be rich. At the table, I met a man from my country. We played for $ 1. The number of participants is 9 persons. I very often remained with this man one on one. That's how I knew who the regulars were. He writes to me, give up ) I write - no. Later we called on Skype then. And actually he tells me you're a good player. Do you want me to see your stats? I said, look, we'll call you later. In General, he tells me. Based on analysis. You very often give up on the turn. It's your weak spot, where you can get hit. I said OK accepted. And I went on playing. I find myself in a situation where, an aggressive player, makes a big bet on the turn. I remember my buddy's words, and I do a raise. Instead of my usual fold, though I didn't stand a chance. My hair started to move when the player made a fold on my bet and all the chips came to me. After my first win, I transferred my buddy $ 10 for advice, over HM.) He told me to play with HM too. But I'm still playing with my head. Here's the story)

Originally Posted by sanych

I have nothing against it. It is better to run in sneakers than barefoot

I mean, sex in a condom feels right, too. Only when you go in without it, you get more sensations. And as a bonus from this children are born. Comparison about the shoes - that was fun too.)

Originally Posted by RANDERSAA

For studies I think it's necessary. Recently PartyPoker banned this type of tool. At the tables can be fairer, but this is sure and harmful for those who are seeking to study the game.

I wrote a big answer today, you can read it. There my history familiarity with these programs. All the same, everyone makes choices. I made mine, I play without programs. I may have no money, but I have fun when people play with these programs. GL.

HUD is just a tool that automatically collects statistics from your (only your) hand history and displays them. It is nothing that you can't do manually if you want. Just like with every other tool it can cause more harm than good if you don't know how to use this information. If you have never seen pistol chance to shoot yourself with it is much greater than to shoot anybody else. There are also free HUDs so even the money are not a problem. If you want to play only for fun without any effort to improve then play on sites without hand history and HUDs. If you want to improve use any legal advantage that you can have. It is simple as that.

Originally Posted by neptun1914

HUD is just a tool that automatically collects statistics from your (only your) hand history and displays them.

A bit nit-picky perhaps, but the program collecting your hand histories is called a tracker, and the tracker can then display the data in real time during play, which is called a HUD. I am writing this, because there seem to be so many misconceptions and misunderstandings about this from people not using trackers. As a poker player you can benefit a lot from using a tracker, even there is no HUD build into it, or you dont turn it on.

Originally Posted by fundiver199

A bit nit-picky perhaps, but the program collecting your hand histories is called a tracker, and the tracker can then display the data in real time during play, which is called a HUD. I am writing this, because there seem to be so many misconceptions and misunderstandings about this from people not using trackers. As a poker player you can benefit a lot from using a tracker, even there is no HUD build into it, or you dont turn it on.

Yes you are correct. Holdem manager and Poker Tracker combine HUD and tracker functionality. You can use HM only as tracker also and analyze previous hands and games with it which for me is at least as useful as the HUD functionality.

Hello I have used some poker software in the past but at the moment I am building a hand database so I can get a good enough sample size for analysation. Which software do other players recommend.

Originally Posted by Napalm

It's a little different. I believe that these programs do not develop a poker player. On the contrary, they make decision-making robots out of people. The basis of the criterion of acceptance, are the numbers. And I think it kills online poker.

Why exactly are you posting? Nothing you've said makes any sense or is true. HUDs and databases do not make decisions for poker players. That's just stupid.

Should we remove all data from games like baseball also? Is that cheating? Players and coaches gather data on their opponents (like a HUD) and then make adjustments based on that data. Should we say all pro baseball players and coaches are cheaters too?

If you can't reason through basic logic, then poker isn't going to be a profitable game for you.

I think the use of the HM is not cheating, its use is completely okay. It is essential to use such programs, if you want to improve your poker skills. Prohibiting utilities from poker rooms, only serve business interests.

Why not? This is a permitted program and every player can use it if he wants.

Poker is all about information at your opponent. SO GET IT!

personally, I'm against it, but major rooms, they do not cancel, as they give the rake

i use pt4 and i think its ok !!!
is legal and acceptable to all poker rooms except party poker

These programs are for the player to study his game and also study the game of regular opponents. Poker is an information game, who has more information does better in decision making. If you want to raise the level of your game you will need to invest in it. Remembering that the use of these programs is not prohibited and that there are free, anyone can use.

Originally Posted by danix

Remembering that the use of these programs is not prohibited and that there are free, anyone can use.

PT4 and HM2 are only free in the trial versions. But if you are serious about online poker, purchasing one of these programs is probably the best investment, you can ever make. If you play anything higher than 2NL, they will quickly pay for themselfes.

Originally Posted by Napalm

It's a little different. I believe that these programs do not develop a poker player. On the contrary, they make decision-making robots out of people. The basis of the criterion of acceptance, are the numbers. And I think it kills online poker.

they help you reading your Opponent if you know how to use the data.
when you Play 4-5 tables, you can't take notes on all the Action and there Comes the Tracker in Play and gives us the Information we miss

Originally Posted by Napalm

He told me to play with HM too. But I'm still playing with my head.

are you thinking About buying HM? because it will take more notes than you could ever Keep in your head :P

Originally Posted by bigfabio

Hello I have used some poker software in the past but at the moment I am building a hand database so I can get a good enough sample size for analysation. Which software do other players recommend.

there are two big Player: Poker Tracker 4 and Holdem Manager 2 (3 in beta); both have a 30day free Trial and I think they are both without too many restrictions. I used both free Trials and bought the HM2 small stakes Version (up to 22$ buy-in) for 60$.
It is really worth the money

i love green poker,no HM,no nathing program,jast your hed, intelect and poker dis is the beter.

I believe poker is a game of incomplete information, so if there is software that can give you more information than your opponenet, and it is allowed by the card room then it is surely fair to use. There are many sites that don't allow HUD's etc so if you don't think it is fair then you could play those. I also think that some people who use such software actually don't benefit from it. Instead it is a drain on their bankroll and bogs down there decision making process, especially those learning the game at the low stakes.

Since buying HM I have improved my game and am now enjoying the strategy of poker more. Because I can analyse my game to great effect whilst I am offline which then makes my online sessions so much more competitive. But obviously it is a personal choice and that's a great thing about life.

It's good to learn about poker strategy but you must have a degree of intuition to assess betting sizes and when knowing when to let go of a hand.

Interesting distinction. Essentially, you are saying anyone with HM3 or similar is a cheat because they are gaining an unfair advantage.

The fact is, many site ALLOW these programmes. That means using them is categorically not cheating. Even sites like PartyPoker that have banned HUD's still allow you to import your hand history so that you can review and evaluate your game.

If you are choosing not to use this resource to improve your game then that is, of course, up to you, but you are choosing to slow your rate of progress of learning.

I disagree having a HUD turns players into robots; they still have to make decisions based on the current hand, they just have a little more information available to them.

poker software for weak players, the cooler cannot be avoided

Personally, I am against HM. I do not play many tables and my own observation is quite enough. This will not save you from moving, as mentioned above))