Just how big an idiot was I?

roundcat

roundcat

Creature of leisure
My dad's in town and I've been dragging him around to play poker tournaments the last couple of nights. I came close to making the final table last night and finished a respectable 18-ish out of 105, but tonight was horrendous.

Here's what happened. I wasn't getting much in the way of playable cards and a couple of orbits passed without my entering the pot. Then I got KQ offsuit in early/mid position and since I'd been playing so tight I decided a raise would probably get some respect, so I raised 3x the big blind and got one caller.

Now, my caller was someone about whom I'd already formed an opinion. Earlier a guy to his right had raised 3x the big blind, and he'd reraised to 10x the big blind. They ended up at showdown and he turned out to have KJ offsuit (he won with top pair). Since raising to 10x the BB preflop with KJ off ranges from semibluff to borderline maniac territory IMHO, and is at the very least a rather aggressive move, that's the hole I put this guy in.

So anyway, there were him and me in the pot, and the flop came with a K and two low cards, all clubs. I didn't have any clubs, but I did have a king, and I threw out a little more than a pot-sized bet (partial laziness... I didn't have many smaller-denomination chips). He reraised me three times that amount. Hmm. So... the guy either had a flush or he was trying to push me off the pot. I decided Scenario B was more likely and pushed all in. He flipped over two clubs and I was out.

Obviously, I made the wrong decision. I took a very limited amount of information and made an incorrect read on a player -- at least about his play at that particular moment. If I'd been up against anyone else at the table I would have folded in a heartbeat.

So, how idiotic was my decision to push? I can think of a few mistakes I made:

1. Not enough information about this player in the limited time I spent with him. My decision was made on the basis of a single hand.
2. My bet on the flop was too big and I could have gained information with a smaller bet while risking fewer chips.
3. Perhaps raising or even entering the pot from early to mid position with KQ offsuit was a mistake. I'll often muck such a hand in early position. Should I have limped in instead? I try to avoid open limping.
 
CACADETORO

CACADETORO

Rising Star
if i thought the guy was just trying to buy the pot too, i would have probably went all in too, but sometimes the lose cannons always win! catch them bluffing once, you just assume he's bluffing all the time. then u find out he's not . so i guess just go with your gut!
 
Stick66

Stick66

Legend
Overall, just bad luck. Even maniacs can catch a real hand.

Not to reveal all my tricks, but I'll just say that I TRY not to go up against a maniac without a pocket pair if I'm in early position. In later position against a wild one, I TRY to limp hands like KQ. Now "try" and "do" are 2 different things and, of course, it all depends.
 
B

banker001

Rising Star
I do not think your decision to raise pre-flop was a bad one. It more then likely made several people lay down their hands that they might have played if you would have limped in.
With a flush possibility on the flop I would have more then likely checked it down to the river (atleast checked once to see what the other player was betting like). I figure it best to error on the side of caution .... especially when putting your tournament life at risk.
 
S

singate

Rock Star
Would I be correct in guessing that he did not have the Ace? I ask this because you may have read his hand better than you thought. If he didn't have the nut flush he was trying to push you off what he thought might be a higher flush draw. If he was playing something like middle suited connectors he would have been alternately thrilled by flopping the flush and worried about his opponent having a face card or the ace. Maniacs seem to love backing into a good hand but they sure get worried when someone has the chance to redraw on them.
 
Egon Towst

Egon Towst

Cardschat Elite
Although there is certainly some truth in this:

It more then likely made several people lay down their hands that they might have played if you would have limped in.

I think you were over-aggressive with KQ pre-flop. This is a trouble hand unless you have position. If you get a piece of the flop and have to act first, it`s always likely to cost you to find out where you stand. Overplaying KQ used to be a big leak in my game, and it was only by studying my results with Poker Tracker that I discovered it was costing me.

Probably you are right not to be overly impressed with the flush threat from a possible bluffer. The flush is actually more rare than people realise (about one hand in 500, if my memory serves. Meaning that, at a full table, there`ll be one every 50 deals, which is not much more than one an hour, depending on the pace of play.), but one often sees the betting grind to a halt and everybody act scared when there are three suited cards on the board.

On the other hand, TPGK is hardly a monster and when he re-raised your pot-size bet you probably should have given it up.
 
bubbasbestbabe

bubbasbestbabe

Suckout Queen
Actually this wasn't too bad a hand to try to grab the blinds. Your mistake was too low a PF raise. You had him pegged correct but you didn't fire right. He had 2 clubs. You didn't say what they were but unless they were high suited connectors he most likely would have folded if you raised at least 5-7x BB. You want the blinds? Then go for them. 3x from what type of player you had him pegged correctly at is not going to cut it. He just had Lady Luck sitting next to him there.
 
chipslap u

chipslap u

Rock Star
I actually find the reflective analysis is spot on. You recognized your error and pointed out where you made the mistakes. I would guess that after the never ending stream of garbage you got a little impatient and that helped to hurt your decision to push back at the loose aggressive guy.

It happens from time to time to the best of them. Anyone that claims they are always on in their game is only bluffing themselves.
 
Egon Towst

Egon Towst

Cardschat Elite
I would guess that after the never ending stream of garbage you got a little impatient and that helped to hurt your decision to push back at the loose aggressive guy.

It happens from time to time to the best of them. Anyone that claims they are always on in their game is only bluffing themselves.


Soo, true. I know that a big hole in my game is that I get impatient when I`m card-dead, and then overplay the first half-decent hand I get.

Now, when I`ve had no cards for a while, I put some music on, settle back in my chair, and make a serious effort to stay relaxed and just wait.
 
troderick

troderick

Rock Star
I find myself getting bored and impatient when getting bad cards over and over again. I am then prone to betting more than I should or calling things I should not.

I have tried to say to myself "pretend that this is the very first hand"..but that doesn't work too well.

I firmly believe the key to poker is patience, patience, patience
 
roundcat

roundcat

Creature of leisure
His clubs were a ten and a jack -- not the nut flush, and he did hesitate just a little before calling my all-in reraise.

One thing I need to work on this year is giving people credit for having hands. Too often I'll think someone is bluffing when they're not.

Thanks for the feedback and analysis!
 
G

Going Deep

Guest
I think your pre flop bet was ok, You get rid of the trash hands and maybe the big blind. But when the clubs came on the flop you should have bet 2 or 3x again. That tells him your either hit the flush and trying to get him to call or you have a pretty good hand. It puts him in a spot and when he calls, It dont cost you much to see the turn. But if he goes all in then you can fold or call.
 
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