Full Tilt Ban OfficialPokerRankings !!!

[Debi]

Yes, this is true.

Go read their FAQ, it lists what you can do to be invisible there.

To the best of my knowledge, once you request for your info/stats to be invisible, you can't view anyone's either.

This is true - if you opt out they will not let you view other's stats.

 

[dj11]

Ok, so Sun Poker has a coach for their "Fearsome Foursome" who during live tournaments CAPT, EPT etc watches the opponents and gathers information about them both current play and historical performance. During the breaks the coach shares the information with the players. There was a recent article about this in Poker Pro Magazine.

Isn't this the same thing?

Besides, sports teams watch reels of their opponents past performances. Sales people learn the pros and cons of their rivals products. All that OPR does is supply us with a little more information that what we can get at first glance.

Perhaps FT should also ban us from taking notes, this gives us an unfair advantage next time we sit down with the same player

I'm with this well presented argument.

OPR does not data mine, like they said, they record results from the lobbies which is available to all.

This is just like the big standings charts published in any decent paper from a golf game, or all the golf games in any certain period, or football (either version), or any competition where prior results are important.

If Full Tilt, or any site, wants to truly produce an anonymous game, they need to assign some random avatar and nonsensical name at the beginning of each session to each player and eliminate all chat.

I think FT is wrong here.

 

[Jack Daniels]

See, that supports my guess as to why FT maybe decided to "protect" everyone by simply disallowing them. Of course I'm talking larger scale than just OPR. I'm talking about supporting opt out (or better yet opt in) for ALL such data mining sites. And while I'd support opt out everywhere, I guess deep down inside I'd prefer they were all simply banned.

EDIT: And to dj's point, sites do not condone HH datamining, so why should these results be allowed to be data mined?

 

[Stick66]

EDIT: And to dj's point, sites do not condone HH datamining, so why should these results be allowed to be data mined?

DJ said that the results are available in the lobby to all. No "datamining" needed. OPR simply "reports" those same widely-available results in a better format on a wider scale covering all results for humans to browse easier.

"Datamining" would apply to HH's since they are NOT available to all.

BTW, do people really get an edge if they see the recent tourney results of an opponent? Does a negative ROI% show how often an opponent chases a flush draw? Does a negative Profit stat show how much an opponent steals from the button? I don't see the big deal. Make the "opt out" option available and be sure to advertise it. Again, problem solved.

 

[Four Dogs]

DJ said that the results are available in the lobby to all. No "datamining" needed. OPR simply "reports" those same widely-available results in a better format on a wider scale covering all results for humans to browse easier.

"Datamining" would apply to HH's since they are NOT available to all.

BTW, do people really get an edge if they see the recent tourney results of an opponent? Does a negative ROI% show how often an opponent chases a flush draw? Does a negative Profit stat show how much an opponent steals from the button? I don't see the big deal. Make the "opt out" option available and be sure to advertise it. Again, problem solved.

Yeah Stick, I think it does. If I see SO with 1000+ tournaments under their belt and a pos ROI I can be pretty sure this is SO who makes good decisions at the table. Conversly, SO with an OPR of 20% who only finishes late 4% is probably not the best player at the table. When I get moved to a new table I may not have the luxory of waiting around for 20 or 30 hands to see how SO plays before I have to act. Sometimes this is all the information I have. Like all information it's most advantageous to those who know how to use it.

 

[tenbob]

The main problem is'nt about having big edges. OK its handy when your on the bubble of the sunday million and see that the 2 on your right are $3 qualifiers without a big cash to their names.

Its people berating the fish, someone dosnt like being told that they have lost $5k playing $11 sit and go's, it makes them have a look at themselves and re-evaluate withir they should actually be playing this game.

 

[Jack Daniels]

No "datamining" needed. OPR simply "reports" those same widely-available results in a better format on a wider scale covering all results for humans to browse easier.

"Datamining" would apply to HH's since they are NOT available to all.

Semantics does not an argument make. Pulling HHs and pulling tourney results are both datamining by definition. You may pull HHs from your table (on most sites) and you're entitled to log those tourney results. Third party observers are not allowed to legally harvest HHs from tables to compile a massive database on everyone that plays the game, so why should they be allowed to compile a massive database on everyones' results? There is no logical leap there; either third party datamining is allowed or it isn't. And yes HHs are available to these dataminers as well. All they need to do is open a table just like they do a lobby and screen scrape.

And yes, I am going to renege on my previous statement a bit. After thinking through this more, I've come to the conclusion that they should all simply be banned IMO.

Oh, and fwiw I blocked my stats at OPR and sharkscope a while back, yet I can still see stats on others (at least as much as a non-subscriber can see).

 

[Stick66]

Well ok. Many different views and angles on his subject. I guess if we were pros, we wouldn't need to worry about this crap. (Although there are pros like Annie Duke and Phil Helmuth who are rumored to have terrible online tourney stats.)

All I know is that I LOVE it when my opponents see my stats and think I suck. Being underestimated "stokes the fire in my soul and makes me thirsty for blood". :evil: :evil: :evil:

 

[LeanAndMean]

I agree with MDTed, ban em all, and sent an email saying that

 

[nevadanick]

I'm with this well presented argument.

OPR does not data mine, like they said, they record results from the lobbies which is available to all.

This is just like the big standings charts published in any decent paper from a golf game, or all the golf games in any certain period, or football (either version), or any competition where prior results are important.

If Full Tilt, or any site, wants to truly produce an anonymous game, they need to assign some random avatar and nonsensical name at the beginning of each session to each player and eliminate all chat.

I think FT is wrong here.

I'm with JD (and not DJ) on this one ...

Of course OPR (and similar others) datamine. Collecting data from sources they were not a part of IN ANY MANNER and compiling it for publication is datamining, imo. It's NOT the same as a golf, baseball, football, bowling (etc) rag/mag. Those mags do not cover the world's players. They follow the pros and semi-pros. Can you imagine the telephone book size of a mag if the results of every golf tourney worldwide was published in one source on a 'comparative' format?

Tracking golf scores is nothing similar to poker results. You have one golf ball and 36 holes to play with a designated 'par'. There are no bluff strokes, c-bet holes, early,mp,late or blinds strategy to play. No sitting out, no limping, no folds and no raises, re-raises or all-ins. You tee off and aim for the hole. How close a golf player gets to par is the guage.

If poker were to be compared to games like golf, or bowling, then wouldn't it be appropriate to give the lesser players a handicap? ...

 

[robertmcpokster]

i used OPR every day ... this hurts a brother , lol not just look up other people but my stats too , i know it is a lil advantage but not much , FT banned the free site lmao , you can still look up stats on pay sites tho , wat a crock . if FT doesnt make nuthin they will do away with it .

_____________________
you cannot change the cards your delt just the way you play them RANDY PAUSCH

 

[viking999]

The only thing that enrages me more than Full Tilt's decision is the fact that so many people here support it. All that these pieces of software do is the very same thing that people do in their heads. The only crime in this software is that it's more effective. This stuff has been a part of the game FOREVER! They should spend their efforts stopping real cheating, collusion, bots, etc. that go on at their site every day.

Also, does anyone know how Full Tilt has any legal recourse against OPR? Are tournament results proprietary information? It doesn't seem so because of the poker news sites that regularly report on major online tournament results. Are they just throwing their weight around, or do they have a legitimate way to stop this?

 

[viking999]

Tracking golf scores is nothing similar to poker results. You have one golf ball and 36 holes to play with a designated 'par'. There are no bluff strokes, c-bet holes, early,mp,late or blinds strategy to play. No sitting out, no limping, no folds and no raises, re-raises or all-ins. You tee off and aim for the hole. How close a golf player gets to par is the guage.

Golf and bowling are the worst possible examples, because you aren't playing against the other players. There is no such thing as exploiting an opponent's weakness in those games. Football is a much better example. You think people on professional football teams aren't studying an opposing team's strengths and weaknesses in past games against other teams in order to prepare for when they play that team? Sure they do. They may even have computer software crunching publicly available statistics to put it in a more human interpretable format, just like Poker Tracker.

I think we're also missing the futility of these moves. People are always going to clamor for this technology to improve their performance, and it is completely futile to try to stop the advancement of technology with rules and regulations. Hand history datamining can never be stopped because an application can always at least watch the hand unfold on the screen and reduce that down to data. Unfortunately, the same is true of bots (which is why I think internet poker is going to die in the future). So Full Tilt is accomplishing nothing in the long run, but they're causing us a short run inconvenience.

 

[Irexes]

Tenbob has it right.

This is an entirely business motivated decision. Bad player gets mocked following a suck-out and finds out about OPR.

This ends the self-delusion that they are decent and makes them realise everyone else can see this too. So some quit.

Are they banning pocket 5s and the other tracking databases, or just OPR cause it's the most common?

Not criticising the move as it's Full Tilts data and brand to protect as they see fit but by the same token I don't see anything unethical in publishing the results.

 

[SPCotter]

Tenbob has it right.

This is an entirely business motivated decision. Bad player gets mocked following a suck-out and finds out about OPR.

This ends the self-delusion that they are decent and makes them realise everyone else can see this too. So some quit.

Are they banning pocket 5s and the other tracking databases, or just OPR cause it's the most common?

Not criticising the move as it's Full Tilts data and brand to protect as they see fit but by the same token I don't see anything unethical in publishing the results.

I gets ya!

I need to stop trash talking at the tables

 

[Syfted]

tenbob makes a good point about people fish-bashing. There's a game at my school that has this rich kid who keeps coming back, and the host continually bashes him and bashes him for his poor plays. No matter where you play, online, internet, garage, wherever- you need to be respectful to everyone at the table. If they enjoy losing money to you, that's their business...

 

[Falloooooon]

I'm never fully in favor of doing something to suppress information. In today's world we just expect to be able to come by any piece of info we want with a few clicks and some typing. So I am not behind this move for that reason.

But, I don't think OPR was helpful in determining anything about a player other than his results. So I don't think it's a big loss in any real sense.

 

[LizzyJ]

tenbob makes a good point about people fish-bashing. There's a game at my school that has this rich kid who keeps coming back, and the host continually bashes him and bashes him for his poor plays. No matter where you play, online, internet, garage, wherever- you need to be respectful to everyone at the table. If they enjoy losing money to you, that's their business...

I never understood why you would slap around someone who is an ATM machine. I see it in micro stakes games all the time. I guess someone people are just so insecure....idk.

 

[SPCotter]

Full Tilt stats are back on OPR, minus sit and go stats with less than thirty players, which is what I mainly used use it for, although I think you gather more in MTT stats, as you can see position % for where people finish etc. rather than a simple ROI, ITM statistick for a 9 man SnG, which you get on MTT as well.

"
July 03, 2009:
To solve the dispute with Full Tilt Poker (see below) we have accepted not to display sit-and-goes tournaments with less than 30 players going forward. Full Tilt Poker has decided that displaying statistics based on these tournaments gives our users an unfair advantage.

In addition we have agreed that our users will have to accept a "Fair use policy" before they can access ROI, Profit and ABI on Official Poker Rankings.

We have suggested Full Tilt Poker, that in addition to their decision players could be given a choice to release their own restricted (sit-and-goes with less than 30 players) statistics to the public themselves or at least get access to their own complete statistics, but for now Full Tilt Poker has turned down these suggestions.

Anyway, we are glad that we again are able to display the most important Full Tilt Poker tournaments and statistics and we hope you still will find Official Poker Rankings a useful service.

Thanks to all of you who took time to forward your opinion to us and directly to Full Tilt Poker. Your help has undoubtedly been instrumental in highlighting the importance of Official Poker Rankings to Full Tilt Poker.

Thank you all for your strong support.
Official Poker Rankings"

All of my SnG stats from 1st June onwards have been wiped I noticed

 

[Jack Daniels]

That's too bad. FT should have stood their ground imo.

 

[NoWuckingFurries]

Pity.

 

[mig2169]

LOL this crazy talk from some smart people. All the big players on fulltilt have software tracking who they are playing against and i know of three people who make 5k a week playing people who have no idea what they are getting into. If fulltilt thinks this is important they are as stupid as they act. This info has nothing to do with the game, who cares. Go put up some big money and play against someone who is tracking how u play and see how u fair. They should ban all software that gives players advantage, not just some of it. They say if is not allowed but we know diffrent. Play against people who know what u have done in the last 2k hands and they can and will take all of ur money. I have seen it first hand and it is really unfair. I watched phatchoy888 on of the best sit@go players on fulltilt for two months and tracked his progress, got into a conversation with him and he has a tracker installed for every hand he plays and his opponents. He makes about 12k in rake every month and he is a above average opr on rankings. I know another person who uses the tracker to his advantage playing 16 tables at a time for 5 and 6 hour sessions at the 2/4 level nolimit and had made a withdraw 2 a month for three years. He has never had a losing month on fulltilt using the tracker software. So a site gathering rankings is a drop in the bucket, and should not affect anything.

 

[ChurchSkiz]

I think it's more of an unfair advantage to block the OPR site. You can still get all the same information but now only a few people who have the determination will keep track of it, or find the underground sites that have the info. At least now EVERYONE can view it.

 

[Stick66]

I had someone taunt me with my stats last night on Stars. The human race is so predictable.

 

[NoWuckingFurries]

So a site gathering rankings is a drop in the bucket, and should not affect anything.

People using trackers is totally different to insulting people based on what Sharkscope and similar sites say about them, often without them even knowing that these people are publishing information about them without their permission.