Is massive sandbagging "slowrolling"?

[canbora]

This is a bit of a story kiddies, strap in.

While this has been a lifelong game for me, i was out of the loop for a while post "black friday" here in America. So after getting back into things I started to hear this word. Now.....if it was used before that I either never paid attention, or it simply wasn't used. So when I look it up, it says its when someone doesn't want to show their cards at showdown and its considered to be one of the words etiquettes in poker.

Now thats a pretty powerful statement. I mean, read that again.

Ok, fast forward to more modern-ish times. I hear top pros always saying "(insert name here) slowrolled me" And I rewind to see what they were talking about. And I at no point saw someone do what the definition said they were doing. WHAT I TOOK FROM IT was ...more of what I personally would define this from context. Its someone intentionally SUPER dragging their feet when they have the nuts. Or something along those lines. Basically wasting peoples time, being a jerk, etc.

OK, fast forward again to lets say,,,,,,,this past year, for me, playing online.

This includes, the approx 3 times to my memory that this happened. The most recent of which was just tonight. Keep in mind, I've played A LOT so three times in a year is rare. ..but still happened.

So, we all play online, right? ...right. So connection issues happen. This happens all the time, its someone's turn and the timer runs out. It sucks they allow this in a disconnect, but whatever. It doesn't seem to happen so much lately like it was a while back. Ive had situations where I had strong hands, even monster, even at one point...the 2nd nuts. (I was in the BB with K4, it checked to me, I flopped K44. I lost to runner runner bigger boat, J4).

Anyway, in all these cases, in order to Hollywood it up to the N-th degree. They person I just mentioned above, and I kid you not. Ran the time down on ever street after the flop. the "shot clock" (as I call it) for the first 15 seconds, then the full time afterward. EVERY.....SINGLE....TIME. This &^#*$*#&# thinks he's putting on an academy ward. "oh my stars what ever shall I do with my horrible horrible horrible hand?" and meanwhile. I'm sitting over here irritated because this guy clearly has connection issues. (or so I thought). After it was all over and I put it together, I said something. I called him out. With my now decades now playing and my age, i say less and less over the years. Nor do I get angry, even at bad beats. ... but I said something. didnt name call or curse. Just said something to the effect of, next time lay off the theatrics there "hollywood" and dont waste the tables time. You're little trick didnt actually work, I thought you had connection issues.

Tonights story was similar. I was new to a cash tables (if you know me you know while I LOVE poker, I hate cash games lol). I didnt want to get in a tourney, I was busy. So I'm just goofing off, playing 10NL. ( i normally play 25 or 50NL). I'm new at the table, but my villain is an obvious TAG. I had AQ suited in the SB. He raised the CO high ( i later learned this was his standard in the CO/button, but didnt know that at the time) So. I'm new, so I'm cautious. I'm not playing for my stack out of position. So I min 3 bet to isolate. Its he and I, headsup to the flop. I fop an A on a rainbow board. I check he bets small, I call. tun comes K, I check, he bets small, I call. river comes Q (no flushes or boats possible). I now have 2 pair. I lead out like a third pot for value. He runs THE ENTIRE CLOCK DOWN TO 1 SECOND!!!!. I seriouslyyyyyyyy thought he disconnected and it was gonna auto fold him.

NOPE! he slams a pot sized bet bet. I snap call, he turns over J 10 offsuit. Yes I know that was his range, but even still... even having the one hand (within reason) to beat me... the math just isnt there. Thats why i called. Anyway........ yup... I said something. Next few hands I something to the effect, shall we all just run the friggen clock down to 1 for no reason like big dawg here? ... something stupid and goofy like that, I said. But think about that. Thats sixty, plus fifteen. Just sit here now and watch the clock for 75 seconds. Do it. This A-hole did that on purpose to make me think "oh heavens what shall i do?" buddy.......make your friggen play and get on with it. Its online poker. Think about it sure, you dont rush and snap bet. But thats ridiculous.

Anyway, if you follow some of my other threads, you know I don't particularly care for cash games, and even more so the over population of TAGs that populate these tables. Well anyway, this guy must have gotten peeved so now we have a war, and now like a shark frenzy, two other players join in. Our table stats must have been through the roof. We were trading paint back and forth and in proper tactics, you dont fight fire with fire(being a TAG) you fight it with water (being a LAG). I ended taking all of my money back off of this guy and then some, and so did a couple other people. We didn't felt him, but we got him down pretty low from his 256BB stack he was sitting on. In internet talk "haha.... Got-eeem"

So I got my revenge. HHAHAHAHA. Im literally laughing now typing this because its all so stupid and I'm fully ware of that.

lol so anyway... is this slowrolling? What do you know of it? Whats your opinion? Also.......have this makeshift "slowrolls" happened to you at the table? What happened afterward?

 

[fundiver199]

A slowroll is defined as needlessly tanking, when you have the nuts, and you are closing action. So it can only be performed, when the opponent has moved all-in or has bet enough to move you all-in, and nobody has to act behind you. In that situation other players have no more decisions to make, so the speed of your action can not give away any tells. And of course you know, you are not folding the nuts. So the only reason to not call instantly is to make the opponent(s) think, you might fold or call with a worse hand.

If someone runs down the clock and then comes back over the top with a raise, thats called hollywooding, and its usually a very strong hand. So rather than hiding the strength of their hand as intended, they are almost doing the opposite. If someone acts slowly on all streets, that is usually referred to as stalling. In MTTs this can be done to increase the chance of making it into the payouts or secure a payjump. In cash games it dont have any other purpose than annoying the opponents.

In online poker slowrolls dont happen very often in my experience. And of course we never really know, if people were actually slowrolling us, or if they were distracted by action on other tables or something entirely different like talking to their wife. At least not unless they are also typing something in the chat. So I never say anything in the chat, if someone tanks and then calls with the nuts. It does not change the outcome of the hand, and if they were slowrolling, then hopefully they get their punishment one day, when they lose connection or time out and have their hand folded

 

[canbora]

Finally, a real answer. So the real answer was a combination of the two. OK that makes sense then too. thank you very much.

And yeah I get it. Out of the countless of times this has happened, its usually obvious or explainable. Usually someone is multiabling, or a connection issue...but unless this guy was doing it at another site, he wasn't doing it there. And on Stars you can check the persons connection, I did, it was 100%. And awfully suspicious he did it when he had the nuts and never in any other hand or any street during this hand nor any hand later. He was johnny on the spot then. And when he did it he did it literally down to the last second. Thats..........just so bad. Not even taking most of the time, but literally till second number 1. He.........discount slowrolled. thats what I'm calling it.

It may not technically be a slowroll but its a cousin to it. Its annoying and unecassarry and just dumb. Espeically to do it online when its not even obvious like live play. As we both said its just as likely to be something else. Most likely a connection issue. So sir lawrance thinks hes hamming it up and we'll all sitting there saying, "oh not this connection issue again"

edit: There seriously needs to be a name for this. Because this is beyond Hollywooding. ... it is hollywooding, but its such an extreme, that its just so much worse. If pumpkin spice white girls can start misusing the word "literally" then I can misuse slow rolling to include extreme hollywood sandbagging. lol

 

[Poker_Mike]

Finally, a real answer. So the real answer was a combination of the two. OK that makes sense then too. thank you very much.

And yeah I get it. Out of the countless of times this has happened, its usually obvious or explainable. Usually someone is multiabling, or a connection issue...but unless this guy was doing it at another site, he wasn't doing it there. And on Stars you can check the persons connection, I did, it was 100%. And awfully suspicious he did it when he had the nuts and never in any other hand or any street during this hand nor any hand later. He was johnny on the spot then. And when he did it he did it literally down to the last second. Thats..........just so bad. Not even taking most of the time, but literally till second number 1. He.........discount slowrolled. thats what I'm calling it.

It may not technically be a slowroll but its a cousin to it. Its annoying and unecassarry and just dumb. Espeically to do it online when its not even obvious like live play. As we both said its just as likely to be something else. Most likely a connection issue. So sir lawrance thinks hes hamming it up and we'll all sitting there saying, "oh not this connection issue again"

edit: There seriously needs to be a name for this. Because this is beyond Hollywooding. ... it is hollywooding, but its such an extreme, that its just so much worse. If pumpkin spice white girls can start misusing the word "literally" then I can misuse slow rolling to include extreme hollywood sandbagging. lol

I am curious, out of all the times you have experienced this or seen it - how many times does the opponent have the winning hand if not the nuts? Thanks.

 

[fundiver199]

It may not technically be a slowroll but its a cousin to it. Its annoying and unecassarry and just dumb.

Absolutely. It wastes everyones time, they risk losing their connection and having their hand folded, and they also kind of give away the strenght of their hand, even though they are trying to do the opposite. If I raise on any street, I always try to do it not super fast but not super slow either. I want people to think, I was at least considering another line of action, but there is no need to run down the clock to the last second,

Espeically to do it online when its not even obvious like live play. As we both said its just as likely to be something else. Most likely a connection issue. So sir lawrance thinks hes hamming it up and we'll all sitting there saying, "oh not this connection issue again"

If you really want to slowroll online, you kind of have to chat and also make sure, the opponent has chat enabled. Facing his jam you could type something like "really?"..... "You have a full house?".... "Ok I call".... and then turn over quads. That would be a classic slowroll

 

[takinitSLEAZEE]

Poker people, lol. Boy, we are a bitchy little bunch when we wanna be; myself included. 😳 I think it's all just part of the game. You can't make players do what you want when you want. Make your move and wait for the villain to act, then proceed. It's really all we can do in that moment. Tilting (getting upset) from another players' bs actions isn't worth it, obv.
*Hint*: when online play more than one table.

 

[canbora]

Poker people, lol. Boy, we are a bitchy little bunch when we wanna be; myself included. 😳 I think it's all just part of the game. You can't make players do what you want when you want. Make your move and wait for the villain to act, then proceed. It's really all we can do in that moment. Tilting (getting upset) from another players' bs actions isn't worth it, obv.
*Hint*: when online play more than one table.

Bro was purposely wasting ALL of the time. I'm not backing down that that's bad form and annoying. As stated, from literal decades of exposure and getting a little older.... few things effect me anymore. But... thats wasting our time. The one thing that cant be replaced no matter what you do. If slowrolling is the worst thing in poker to do, etiquette wise, then wasting time is the worst thing to do to a human in general, etiquette wise.

Absolutely. It wastes everyones time, they risk losing their connection and having their hand folded, and they also kind of give away the strenght of their hand, even though they are trying to do the opposite. If I raise on any street, I always try to do it not super fast but not super slow either. I want people to think, I was at least considering another line of action, but there is no need to run down the clock to the last second,

If you really want to slowroll online, you kind of have to chat and also make sure, the opponent has chat enabled. Facing his jam you could type something like "really?"..... "You have a full house?".... "Ok I call".... and then turn over quads. That would be a classic slowroll

Wouldnt that be hilarious if they clicked at just the wrong nanosecond and folded? haha. And yeah, if you KNOW the player more and its more clear what they're doing, a for sure obvious tell. I didn't check all the tables, I normally do but I didnt this time. So I didn't know if he was multi at that point. And I had no evidence prior of a sandbag of any sort. More than likely a disconnect issue. First instinct. And I'm in full agreement with taking your time, but neither snap bet, nor sandbag. Its what almost everyone does at the higher stakes. It masks your play.

I am curious, out of all the times you have experienced this or seen it - how many times does the opponent have the winning hand if not the nuts? Thanks.

Do you mean actual times that the person was sandbagging, or anything related, including disconnects or multitabling? If you mean actual sandbagging, to my memory, every time. Or if it wasn't THE nuts, it was near nuts/ a monster, or as you said it,... the winning hand. Yeah, every time.

But multi tabling and disconnects happen, ALL of the time. And you never for sure know until the end or when its fully over what happened. So you can't 100% assume. If you were pulling the teachers trick of asking me the question in hopes to teach me a lesson haha, point taken. Yeah, but see as I just said, you never know. If you knew for sure then, yeah of course. Time to make some lay downs.

But even still in these instances, the call was justified I felt. its an extreme rarity that this happens and its not like I had garbage. First time I had a boat (KK444). I mean... come on, ya know. Whos laying that down at micro stakes? Second time, Two large pair. Nothing would have indicated to me he had a set. And yes again as stated, the straight was within his range, but it was far more likely he also had a smaller two pair and was trying to push me out. People at micro stakes do that. They're very...animalistic. They snap bet/call, if you check, they bet. They try to push you out. Its all very predictable. While its not 100%, nothing ever is, its the most likely thing. This guy was clearly push betting me on the first three streets. Raising big 3.5x with J 10 offsuit in the CO, making a c bet on the flop with absolute zero, then betting on the turn with nothing more than a gut shot. What is that .. 8%? he was clearly trying to push me out, and I snap called each time. Nine times out of time at micros, this simply ramps people up and induces even harder panic betting as I call it. If he went all in, I would have folded, but he raised the current pot, after my value bet. I mean... yeah, I was calling that. Situationally wrong, but mathematically, I believe was correct.

 

[rachelle2291]

To me the term sandbagging is a golf term where you purposely inflate your handicap or purposely shoot a bad round in the first round of a tournament so you can compete against weaker players to increase your chance of winning a prize. I did not know it was a poker term and I didn't think it had anything to do with the term slowrolling.

 

[canbora]

To me the term sandbagging is a golf term where you purposely inflate your handicap or purposely shoot a bad round in the first round of a tournament so you can compete against weaker players to increase your chance of winning a prize. I did not know it was a poker term and I didn't think it had anything to do with the term slowrolling.

Yeah its definitely a poker and just a general lingo term. Drawing from using actual sandbags as weight, to weight things down...effectively then slowing them down. If one is said to sandbag, that means they're purposely dragging their feet on purpose for some sort of alternate reason...usually nefarious in nature.

 

[shanest]

In the context of online play, as you mentioned, things can get a bit murky. Connection issues, intentional stalling, or even just trying to induce a reaction from opponents can all come into play.

From your description, it seems like you encountered a mix of intentional stalling and perhaps a touch of gamesmanship. While it can be irritating, it sounds like you handled it with a good amount of humor and a touch of calling out the behavior.

In the end, it's all part of the game, right? Poker is as much about navigating the table dynamics and player psychology as it is about the cards. It's great to hear you were able to turn the tables (quite literally) and come out on top in the end!

As for my take, I think it's important for players to be mindful of the pace of the game, especially in online settings where time can be a bit more abstract. Intentional stalling to create irritation or confusion might work in the short term, but it can also lead to a more heated atmosphere at the table.

 

[canbora]

In the context of online play, as you mentioned, things can get a bit murky. Connection issues, intentional stalling, or even just trying to induce a reaction from opponents can all come into play.

From your description, it seems like you encountered a mix of intentional stalling and perhaps a touch of gamesmanship. While it can be irritating, it sounds like you handled it with a good amount of humor and a touch of calling out the behavior.

In the end, it's all part of the game, right? Poker is as much about navigating the table dynamics and player psychology as it is about the cards. It's great to hear you were able to turn the tables (quite literally) and come out on top in the end!

As for my take, I think it's important for players to be mindful of the pace of the game, especially in online settings where time can be a bit more abstract. Intentional stalling to create irritation or confusion might work in the short term, but it can also lead to a more heated atmosphere at the table.

I couldnt agree more on everything you said. Also plus points for the words gamesmanship. lol. I like that.

 

[fundiver199]

Intentional stalling to create irritation or confusion might work in the short term, but it can also lead to a more heated atmosphere at the table.

In my opinion thats a jerky move and also pretty dumb. If you think, you are a winning player, then why would you not want your cash table to play as many hands per hour as possible? Also it would not work on me, since I always multitable. So if action on a table is slow, I hardly even notice it, since I mainly pay attention to the tables, where I have decisions to make

 

[canbora]

In my opinion thats a jerky move and also pretty dumb. If you think, you are a winning player, then why would you not want your cash table to play as many hands per hour as possible? Also it would not work on me, since I always multitable. So if action on a table is slow, I hardly even notice it, since I mainly pay attention to the tables, where I have decisions to make

it reminds of the reddit/tiktok posts where people ask "whats a sign of person being really intelligent / not intelligent?" That right there is non intelligence. It shows no perception of awareness of yourself, others, possibilities of other situations and the general overall norms and customs of the game itself on a common level.

AKA...... no one is doing that schitt... if if you are its so obvious no one considers it for a multitude of other reasons. Like we said, either connections, multi tabling (you or them or both).. That its preposterous. And you never fully know until its after its over. Like I did in the few time's that this happened.

Fun fact though, to newer players. Back in the day, 20-ish odd years ago...this was common. And it worked, but even then they never went THIS extreme. They sandbagged hard, but not until the very very last second, and like the other guy, doing it to the last second every single time on every single street. But yeah, anyway, it was more common. And beleive it or not, our connections were MUCH better back then. Current poker websites are garbage..at least the ones I'm playing on, including poker stars. Although, I'll say they did a few updates they are a few percent better, but no where near what they use to be. And nowhere near what it SEEMS GG poker. GG poker is approved for my region, but they have to partner with a brick and mortar casino before they can run games and they've been in limbo for a while. But from what I have seen, they're fully modern.