Hi,
I am very new to poker online and I would like to know how true of a reflection of reality the random card generators are on poker sites.

Many thanks

Jack

Originally Posted by Jackdalad3

Hi,
I am very new to poker online and I would like to know how true of a reflection of reality the random card generators are on poker sites.

Many thanks

Jack

Playing online is different from playing in real life. The generators seem to create lots of action. What I mean by this is when you have a hand someone else also has a hand and it is almost always a sweat to the river. On your big hands where you are playing for alot or are all in and someone calls depending on what point of the tourney you are in depends on what seems to happen. With me if it is the start of a tourney I usually chip up and do well for a bit but after a while in the tourney you seem to go card dead or lose to some suck out by the river. This is the pattern I have noticed doesn't matter how you play or if you change up your play based on the way the cards are coming out or who you are playing it is the same result. And that result is that you make the money for a min cash or do not cash at all. It doesnt matter if I am playing in a 7900 man tourney or a 9 man sit and go. I get the same result which should not happen with a true deck of cards. If my playing style and skill allows me to run deep enough in a 7900 man tourney regularly to min cash I should have no problem consistently cashing in a 9 man tourney. But that is not the case I tend to fall just short of the money. That is the one thing the card generator has consistency on. This is cynical but sometimes I wonder if this is intentional so that I keep having to deposit more money. The more money in play the more rake pokerstars gets. I honestly think they would have to be pretty stupid and greedy to load the generators so people are always winning at the start of tourneys and then losing just before the money and redepositing it would be a big loss if they ever got caught. Especially when as it is they have thousands of people playing every day. But I wonder if the reason they only have thousands of people playing everyday is because of the amount of action that results when playing and the adrenaline rush you get when you do win or play a big hand which seems to occur regularly in a tourney.

Thank you for the reply. I find your point of view very interesting and in fact I also have a theory not to dissimilar to this. I seem to suffer the same fate as you in the tournaments I’m playing. Unless I have perfect game play and apply perfect theory I don’t win. Always there or there about but no carrot. Thanks again for your insight.

Moved this out to its own thread in Online Poker. You might get more replies.

I think the goal of sites rng is to recreate randomness as best as they can. I don’t believe any computer generated system can be truly as random as the shuffling of the deck but it’s the best we have.

Originally Posted by Jackdalad3

Hi,
I am very new to poker online and I would like to know how true of a reflection of reality the random card generators are on poker sites.

Many thanks

Jack

What do we know about the random card generators?

a) it's a program.
b) every program has front end and back end.
c) programs are made by humans.
d) humans lie.
e) the end.

its totally random here is a post i made before to explain
Ok Im a former programmer I worked for AT&T and IBM. Let me tell you one way I would write a simple poker program. I would create an array simply put it is like a box with 52 boxes in it. I would load that array with the 52 cards randomly by using a random number generator from 1 to 52 and assigning each card a number. That mimics a shuffle. Then I could either start dealing out the cards starting at any point I want or randomly select the slots I would choose the cards from. Done, totally random and it would be no different than a live dealer shuffling a deck and dealing the cards. Now what you are implying is after this is done my program makes some sort of decision if A then B. It doesnt, a random program has no decision points other than is the slot I just chose empty (I have already chose that card) or full. To make this example equal a live dealer, he has 52 slots to put those cards in thinking each card is in its own slot while sitting in the deck. He shuffles them randomly filling the slots he then deals them out accordingly.
If you are not tired of reading then yes I could write a program that specifically deals the cards one way and favors certain players or manipulates the cards according to a flop or players hold cards. But that would not be a random deal and that would not pass any certification criteria.

the random number generator in all rooms is one-to-one and without cheating

I watched about this in PokerStars youtube channel, there were scientists who said that card generation is totally random and there aren't patterns that can be traced. Most of people dont understand that online poker is much faster and more hands are dealt than offline so it leads to more suck-outs, coolers and other stuff.

Many would disagree with me, but I think it is not random in many cases. I believe that algorithms are play. This would take a deeper discussion another time.

The actual random in not a random at all...there is something like an formula behind that RNG..

Originally Posted by Jackdalad3

Hi,
I am very new to poker online and I would like to know how true of a reflection of reality the random card generators are on poker sites.

Many thanks

Jack

See the explanation in the video below. Note that comments were enabled for anyone to express their opinions. After receiving much criticism, it was disabled. Coincidence only in that specific video? To reflect.

You Tube

I don't mind people saying it's not random. What irritates me is when their reason is because they don't win. I 100% guarantee that those players aren't losing because of any issue with an RNG. The answer is much closer to home.

A computer generated game will be more random than most live dealers.

Originally Posted by roger perkins

its totally random here is a post i made before to explain
Ok Im a former programmer I worked for AT&T and IBM. Let me tell you one way I would write a simple poker program. I would create an array simply put it is like a box with 52 boxes in it. I would load that array with the 52 cards randomly by using a random number generator from 1 to 52 and assigning each card a number. That mimics a shuffle. Then I could either start dealing out the cards starting at any point I want or randomly select the slots I would choose the cards from. Done, totally random and it would be no different than a live dealer shuffling a deck and dealing the cards. Now what you are implying is after this is done my program makes some sort of decision if A then B. It doesnt, a random program has no decision points other than is the slot I just chose empty (I have already chose that card) or full. To make this example equal a live dealer, he has 52 slots to put those cards in thinking each card is in its own slot while sitting in the deck. He shuffles them randomly filling the slots he then deals them out accordingly.
If you are not tired of reading then yes I could write a program that specifically deals the cards one way and favors certain players or manipulates the cards according to a flop or players hold cards. But that would not be a random deal and that would not pass any certification criteria.

Hi Roger,

Could you point towards a way for me to program this on my own? I'm interested in testing some hypotheses (statistical propensity, gambler's fallacy, etc.) and I wish I could program an RCG instead of doing it by hand with a deck of cards over and over again. Thanks!

I'm fairly certain that the RNGs do not produce a static deck that deals the cards out from a predetermined order. It would make sense for the deck to be in a state of constant shuffle even while a game/hand is being played.

The RNG system basically randomly deals a card from the available cards not previously dealt. There is likely no "deck".

My assumption is based that using a continuous shuffle, or random selection from the cards yet to be dealt, would increase the level of entropy and reduce any risk of a person being able to "hack" the deck to see what card is next to be dealt.

It's likely the RNG simply randomly selects any card from the available cards, and deals that card next.

There are no burn cards. There is no cutting of the deck. There isn't even a "shuffle" per se.

The cards are chosen at random starting from the 52 cards, and dealt out to the players and board. Once a card has been dealt, it's no longer available for the RNG to select.

Originally Posted by emzadii

Hi Roger,

Could you point towards a way for me to program this on my own? I'm interested in testing some hypotheses (statistical propensity, gambler's fallacy, etc.) and I wish I could program an RCG instead of doing it by hand with a deck of cards over and over again. Thanks!

You could write a fairly simply... or fairly complex RNG/RCG using either AutoIt, or WinAutomation.

I personally use WinAutomation, and have written a few RNGs myself. Basically, choosing a random number say between 1 and 100. Rather than using the command "Generate Random Integer", I wrote my RNGs to generate a series of random integers, and letters, and then combine the outcome, which would trigger a specific type of outcome. So the RNG didn't simply choose a number, it did a series of selections, then the outcome would be interpreted as a final number.

Originally Posted by emzadii

Hi Roger,

Could you point towards a way for me to program this on my own? I'm interested in testing some hypotheses (statistical propensity, gambler's fallacy, etc.) and I wish I could program an RCG instead of doing it by hand with a deck of cards over and over again. Thanks!

Do you have access to a compiler or a site where you can write code?

In general, I think it is quite reliable. But the fact that the fish's weak hand that moves you on the river has more percent on the line before the flop makes me wonder)

Originally Posted by roger perkins

Do you have access to a compiler or a site where you can write code?

Hi Roger,

No, I do not. I'm still at the stage of trying to figure out Windows Automation. Which compiler would you suggest?

I'm also trying to figure out if I could also program an RNG using Android Studio, if you have any tips.

Originally Posted by Swear Engine

I don't mind people saying it's not random. What irritates me is when their reason is because they don't win. I 100% guarantee that those players aren't losing because of any issue with an RNG. The answer is much closer to home.

Exactly. This discussion about "rigged poker sites" is as old as online poker itself, and it will likely last as long, as online poker exists. But the real reasons, why most players lose, are a combination of the following:

1) They are not as good, as they think (ego)

2) They have played a completely insignificant number of hands / tournaments (variance)

3) Rake

The latter point is also why, the whole discussion is kind of silly. Poker sites dont need to implement some advanced cheating scheme to make money. All, they need to do, is to keep the gravy train rolling and cash in that rake.

There is nothing perfect about RNGs, while they are supposedly random unfortunately they are not. However any irregularities in their randomness are the same for all players and balance out. Anyway they are all we have to deal for us

Originally Posted by Jackdalad3

Hi,
I am very new to poker online and I would like to know how true of a reflection of reality the random card generators are on poker sites.

Many thanks

Jack

That question comes up quite a bit. These rooms do have certifications that they do go through, and who would want to play at a room that is known for cheating? Also, you see a lot more hands in online than you do at a live setting, so you will see a lot more bad beats, etc. If you have a basic solid foundation for pre-flop and follow up with a decent post flop game, you should able to see that it all works out at the end.

I am not sure anymore I played pokerstars for a lot of years and cashed quite a bit. I developed my game watched streamers and took courses to improve. Regardless of how my play developed I could not win more than I lost on pokerstars website. This is over an 8 year period. I now play a different site which is softer there isnt as much action but in a month and a half I am up $600 and I am not redepositing. There isn't nearly as many bad beats and I don't have as many suck outs on others like I do every time I play pokerstars. I do believe pokerstars generator is geared to create more action for all the players to encourage people playing and depositing more money.

To be sure, if someone has ever played live it feels like these random number generators aren’t really modeling reality correctly.
I could also say that random number generators have probably never played poker live.

Hi. I don't think they are random. It is easy to see if you play many hands, you can already anticipate that the probability percentages are not real. Both in the cards you receive, as in the flop, and more in the turn and the river. That is why I believe that online poker should be taken only as a hobby. It's okay that good players surely have a better chance of winning ... But the algorithms of the programs play against them.

ACR feels more random than Global Poker by a mile. I see multiple 4 of a kind every day on global. I go weeks without seeing 4 of a kind on ACR. It's just so weird to see 4 of a kind show up so much..or str8 flushes show up so much.

I have no concerns about the randomness of hands. It's so easy to accomplish and ensuring only specific people benefit from it would be hard to keep from getting out eventually. The fallout far outweighs the risk/benefits, but then I'm not a big conspiracy theory subscriber, either.

Manmade algorithm can never be random.

Originally Posted by roger perkins

If you are not tired of reading then yes I could write a program that specifically deals the cards one way and favors certain players or manipulates the cards according to a flop or players hold cards. But that would not be a random deal and that would not pass any certification criteria.

I would like to believe it

Back when I played seriously, I had about 1.5 million hands saved in my HEM data, and I ran some tests, such as how many times did I win with AA, but I ran a number of tests. This is all years ago now, but I remember the numbers being close enough to where they should be that I felt fine about everything. A majority of the hands were from Poker Stars, but also 888 and Carbon.

Originally Posted by finaltable1

What do we know about the random card generators?

a) it's a program.
b) every program has front end and back end.
c) programs are made by humans.
d) humans lie.
e) the end.

Great answer

i would belived it is random if i would not always loose when i got an 70% chanse of winning

Originally Posted by Tracid

A computer generated game will be more random than most live dealers.

This ^.

The whole poker is rigged argument has been around since the early years of online poker, and a full two decades later, people are still blaming RNG for their losses. The simple fact is that many players have been successful both live and online. How come they have not fallen victims to RNG?

Originally Posted by finaltable1

What do we know about the random card generators?

a) it's a program.
b) every program has front end and back end.
c) programs are made by humans.
d) humans lie.
e) the end.

I never saw so much truth together in a post

Originally Posted by finaltable1

What do we know about the random card generators?

a) it's a program.
b) every program has front end and back end.
c) programs are made by humans.
d) humans lie.
e) the end.

So, using this "logic", just do not use computer programs.

Great advice.

The end.

Originally Posted by fletchdad

So, using this "logic", just do not use computer programs.

Great advice.

The end.

The percentile of Earth humans who directly use or are indirectly assisted by no computer programs whatsoever on a day-to-day basis...


Lodden thinks anyone?

Originally Posted by fletchdad

So, using this "logic", just do not use computer programs.

Great advice.

The end.

You're so clever, I bet that Einstein was your student. Using your "deductive methods" one day you will realize that Chlorine(Cl) is a poisonous gas, and Sodium(NA) is a dangerous metal. Salt in your kitchen has following chemical formula = NaCl, SO? You're poisoning yourself - right?

Let's have a look at 2 simple examples.

Example 1:
a) Program "Adobe Photoshop" is sold as it is, it's a great tool for designers. But one day creators have decided to extract some additional profit. And they came up with a simple idea - why don't we sell some add-ons for the Photoshop to designers who have some specific needs.From the other side, designers are using Photoshop as a tool to extract profit from their customers. Everything is simple and obvious. We can clearly see how creators and users of the program are getting their profits. We can clearly see front end and we can see back end - the source code and how it used.

b) Program "Ancient Slots" is designed for casinos and is sold to casino owners as a program for electronic slot machines. Casinos are extracting profit from their "customers". These victims have no access to back end of the program they're using. They can't see the code, all they can see is some sort of game mechanics bullsht on the screen. It's not a secret that such programs are designed to generate profit and "admins" = those who have access to back end of such programs are able to manipulate with such numbers like "payback %" and "chance to win". In such games you may be a victim of "never win" mode.

Example 2:
a) Program "World of Tanks" is a popular online game, it's free, but if you want to be better than others - you can buy some virtual trash like tanks/ammo/weapons/armor and so on... It's just pixels on the screen, but some humanoids falsely believe that it's something that they really need, that's why they're purchasing these pixels with real money. Nothing can stop administration from creation of fake accounts with much much more dominating tanks and use these virtual players to hit down those who pay money, just to spend their ammo, so they will buy it again soon.
Do you have access to game code, game mechanics or back end(admin panel), can you prove that administration is not doing it? Can they do it? Yes they can. Are they honest? I don't know any of them, and i'm not sure if any of them can control it, it can be actually controlled by a single person - general owner.

b) Program online poker - What can you prove here? NO TH ING! All that people prefer to do is to act like a blind sheep and keep trusting their shepherd(their favorite poker site) Because their shepherd is giving them a daily doze of adrenaline in their safe home environment. That's all.

From these examples we can clearly see that programs are different. Some are based on "take it or leave it" system. Some are based on pay per view or pay per touch or pay per imbecile. Is online poker rigged? I don't know for sure, I do know that this planet is full of idiots, and wise guys prefer to extract juices from that horde of idiots.
In general, poker is a very simple game, you always have just 2 decisions, I mean 2 questions to answer. 1) Am I an idiot? 2) Am I not an idiot? Answers to these questions are not related to cards/position/buy-ins and such, answers are based on if you're playing poker or not. You could save lives being a surgeon, you could do something really useful for the society and for yourself instead of sitting in a chair and trying to prove to yourself that you're "professzioblablbla playa"
LOL so funny

Originally Posted by finaltable1

you always have just 2 decisions, I mean 2 questions to answer. 1) Am I an idiot? 2) Am I not an idiot?

we will never know xD

Originally Posted by johnnylawford

LOL, such jokes are not designed for people with low iQ level. After some time an imbecile will
understand that obvious part. The sad part of it is that majority will never even think that there is a hidden part of the joke. In addition they will never even think about something like "3d-dimensional thinking" Who cares about your subjective point of view, opponents subjective point of view and objective point of view of independent observer named "The Truth". Why they will never think about such things? because in their universe alphabet starts with letter "I" and the most important argument is "I say so"
I do respect those who can think like an idiot... when it's necessary.

everything is an electronic sistem, and everything is based on an electronic sistem means that can be modified anytime u want...

I feel (but this may be my particular impression) that there are more aces falling on the boards (from flop to river) than normal.

That's what makes me confused all the time. How this system works? If flop, turn and river are known before bidding or that is randomly live through the game. Anyone knows?

Originally Posted by finaltable1

You're so clever, I bet that Einstein was your student. Using your "deductive methods" one day you will realize that Chlorine(Cl) is a poisonous gas, and Sodium(NA) is a dangerous metal. Salt in your kitchen has following chemical formula = NaCl, SO? You're poisoning yourself - right?

Let's have a look at 2 simple examples.

Example 1:
a) Program "Adobe Photoshop" is sold as it is, it's a great tool for designers. But one day creators have decided to extract some additional profit. And they came up with a simple idea - why don't we sell some add-ons for the Photoshop to designers who have some specific needs.From the other side, designers are using Photoshop as a tool to extract profit from their customers. Everything is simple and obvious. We can clearly see how creators and users of the program are getting their profits. We can clearly see front end and we can see back end - the source code and how it used.

b) Program "Ancient Slots" is designed for casinos and is sold to casino owners as a program for electronic slot machines. Casinos are extracting profit from their "customers". These victims have no access to back end of the program they're using. They can't see the code, all they can see is some sort of game mechanics bullsht on the screen. It's not a secret that such programs are designed to generate profit and "admins" = those who have access to back end of such programs are able to manipulate with such numbers like "payback %" and "chance to win". In such games you may be a victim of "never win" mode.

Example 2:
a) Program "World of Tanks" is a popular online game, it's free, but if you want to be better than others - you can buy some virtual trash like tanks/ammo/weapons/armor and so on... It's just pixels on the screen, but some humanoids falsely believe that it's something that they really need, that's why they're purchasing these pixels with real money. Nothing can stop administration from creation of fake accounts with much much more dominating tanks and use these virtual players to hit down those who pay money, just to spend their ammo, so they will buy it again soon.
Do you have access to game code, game mechanics or back end(admin panel), can you prove that administration is not doing it? Can they do it? Yes they can. Are they honest? I don't know any of them, and i'm not sure if any of them can control it, it can be actually controlled by a single person - general owner.

b) Program online poker - What can you prove here? NO TH ING! All that people prefer to do is to act like a blind sheep and keep trusting their shepherd(their favorite poker site) Because their shepherd is giving them a daily doze of adrenaline in their safe home environment. That's all.

From these examples we can clearly see that programs are different. Some are based on "take it or leave it" system. Some are based on pay per view or pay per touch or pay per imbecile. Is online poker rigged? I don't know for sure, I do know that this planet is full of idiots, and wise guys prefer to extract juices from that horde of idiots.
In general, poker is a very simple game, you always have just 2 decisions, I mean 2 questions to answer. 1) Am I an idiot? 2) Am I not an idiot? Answers to these questions are not related to cards/position/buy-ins and such, answers are based on if you're playing poker or not. You could save lives being a surgeon, you could do something really useful for the society and for yourself instead of sitting in a chair and trying to prove to yourself that you're "professzioblablbla playa"
LOL so funny

It is my understanding that elements such as chlorine and sodium (and their properties) are subject to change when they react or are formed into chemical compounds with other elements so whilst they might be poisonous individually, that doesn't necessarily mean table salt is lethal...

... although we do eat & drink a great deal of poison for one reason or other...

As you know, I've always admired your posts... Pray tell, what would be your top five alternate suggestions for one pursuing the pro poker dream?

Regards,


~EDiT:- Did you pick up my latest PM?

Wow........ I obviously offended you......

I'm sorry.......

Originally Posted by finaltable1

You're so clever, I bet that Einstein was your student. Using your "deductive methods" one day you will realize that Chlorine(Cl) is a poisonous gas, and Sodium(NA) is a dangerous metal. Salt in your kitchen has following chemical formula = NaCl, SO? You're poisoning yourself - right?

Let's have a look at 2 simple examples.

Example 1:
a) Program "Adobe Photoshop" is sold as it is, it's a great tool for designers. But one day creators have decided to extract some additional profit. And they came up with a simple idea - why don't we sell some add-ons for the Photoshop to designers who have some specific needs.From the other side, designers are using Photoshop as a tool to extract profit from their customers. Everything is simple and obvious. We can clearly see how creators and users of the program are getting their profits. We can clearly see front end and we can see back end - the source code and how it used.

b) Program "Ancient Slots" is designed for casinos and is sold to casino owners as a program for electronic slot machines. Casinos are extracting profit from their "customers". These victims have no access to back end of the program they're using. They can't see the code, all they can see is some sort of game mechanics bullsht on the screen. It's not a secret that such programs are designed to generate profit and "admins" = those who have access to back end of such programs are able to manipulate with such numbers like "payback %" and "chance to win". In such games you may be a victim of "never win" mode.

Example 2:
a) Program "World of Tanks" is a popular online game, it's free, but if you want to be better than others - you can buy some virtual trash like tanks/ammo/weapons/armor and so on... It's just pixels on the screen, but some humanoids falsely believe that it's something that they really need, that's why they're purchasing these pixels with real money. Nothing can stop administration from creation of fake accounts with much much more dominating tanks and use these virtual players to hit down those who pay money, just to spend their ammo, so they will buy it again soon.
Do you have access to game code, game mechanics or back end(admin panel), can you prove that administration is not doing it? Can they do it? Yes they can. Are they honest? I don't know any of them, and i'm not sure if any of them can control it, it can be actually controlled by a single person - general owner.

b) Program online poker - What can you prove here? NO TH ING! All that people prefer to do is to act like a blind sheep and keep trusting their shepherd(their favorite poker site) Because their shepherd is giving them a daily doze of adrenaline in their safe home environment. That's all.

From these examples we can clearly see that programs are different. Some are based on "take it or leave it" system. Some are based on pay per view or pay per touch or pay per imbecile. Is online poker rigged? I don't know for sure, I do know that this planet is full of idiots, and wise guys prefer to extract juices from that horde of idiots.
In general, poker is a very simple game, you always have just 2 decisions, I mean 2 questions to answer. 1) Am I an idiot? 2) Am I not an idiot? Answers to these questions are not related to cards/position/buy-ins and such, answers are based on if you're playing poker or not. You could save lives being a surgeon, you could do something really useful for the society and for yourself instead of sitting in a chair and trying to prove to yourself that you're "professzioblablbla playa"
LOL so funny

it is not present, if you analyze with 10K hands, it becomes clear that everything is fair enough

Originally Posted by Tracid

It is my understanding that elements such as chlorine and sodium (and their properties) are subject to change when they react or are formed into chemical compounds with other elements so whilst they might be poisonous individually, that doesn't necessarily mean table salt is lethal...

... although we do eat & drink a great deal of poison for one reason or other...

As you know, I've always admired your posts... Pray tell, what would be your top five alternate suggestions for one pursuing the pro poker dream?

Regards,


~EDiT:- Did you pick up my latest PM?

What PM? I haven't received anything.

You're admiring my posts? Oh it can't be, cause i'm such a ....... well, you know, cause since you know what I know, then you must also know that I know what I wanted to type there .

I believe that example with the salt was nice one, It was an answer to some sort of "we shouldn't use programs at all" message. It's like "Use it but don't over use it, or you'll do damage to yourself". 1kilogramm of salt during a day is a deadly doze for almost any human. No salt at all will lead to diseases and death. So there must be a balance - right? What is the correct balance? In case of poker - both online poker rooms and live casinos want to ruin balance of each individual player to obtain manipulative control. It's not like there is a team sitting and observing you to find out your weaknesses(well, maybe in live casinos such teams exist), but in case of online poker rooms - it's just their game of trends and psychological tricks written in code and represented to you in forms of interface, bonuses, promotions and such trash. It's a virtual manipulation, the deeper you fall in it the more promising it looks, you can almost touch the cards, you can almost feel the perfume and sweat of your opponents.But everything is just a gigantic con.

Why it's a con? Any good and prospering relationship in human society is based on "win-win" scheme. Person must realize that his only and single chance to win is if he accepts the fact that he's paying money and time and some energy for the feelings he will be getting. At this point it doesn't matter if individual is a winning or losing player. That's a single subjective point of view where individual can feel that "win-win" works for him. From all other objective points of view 100% of poker players are losers, they lose time, they lose money, they work for a program, they're not doing anything useful for the society in general and for themselves too, statistically online poker leads to real life debts, divorces, problems with law, alcohol, drugs and so on. SO Casino wins, players lose. If you accept the fact that you're a loser - go ahead and catch your quads on the river, that's what subjectively your mind is looking for to give you a fake feelings like "I'm a winner"... Ok Ok, You're a Winner of the pot? no problem, WINNER of the tourney? no problem, WINNER OF THE YEAR? Great, but still You're a loser. If someone is not getting it still then let's have a look at two drug users, both of them are using heroine, one is richer, the other one is homeless, one can have his doze of perfect clean heroine several times per day, the other one is getting some trash portions mixed with replacements. Both of them are feeling like they're winners, but what do you feel when you're looking at them from apart? Do they look like winners? That's what majority of the society objectively thinks about card players. The first step to solve the problem is to understand the problem and describe it as deep as possible, to find the roots and see where this problem is coming from. Whole poker media world is screaming loud "It's not a problem" So LOL, why would some poker fan will ever read my posts, while there is a post written by Daniel or whatever Phil, where they say how shocking iot was to see Nine at the river... Some say that it's entertainment, but once again - where is the balance with this salt? It's a nice entertainment when you're watching a movie once every two months, it's a nice entertainment when you're playing some live poker with friends once a month or three. It's nice to reward yourself with a cigar and glass of some nice strong stuff once during couple of months, but if you're addicted - you must realize that you're not rewarding yourself anymore, you're sick and it's a road of self destruction of your character. It's hard for a human to be his own psychologist... too hard, I guess that i'm analyzing myself through posts of some other people at this forum and lol for past 3+ years it worked for me like if cardschat is some sort of "Alcoholics anonymous" but in the field of gambling.

Pray tell, what would be your top five alternate suggestions for one pursuing the pro poker dream?

Can you explain what exactly do you mean by saying "alternate suggestions" ? Can you find these suggestions in what I've typed above, or you had something else in mind?

Originally Posted by fletchdad

Wow........ I obviously offended you......

I'm sorry.......

Really? Why? I always though that there is no need and no place for such tolerance here at CC!
I'm very positive in my life and keep trying to put some joke or sarcasm in my posts here, or even trying to chew things up like if i'm talking to some child That's why i actually was thinking that my post may insult you BUT i haven't stopped and posted it, and I don't feel sorry about it. Cause if this tolerance will go on, then next year we'll be bringing "heavy apologies" for not saying "sorry" before saying "hi". I hope that you're also not having any hard feelings, and why don't we just throw some liquid sh!t to the propeller of this thread's theme? It's much more fun, isn't it?

Originally Posted by finaltable1

Really? Why? I always though that there is no need and no place for such tolerance here at CC!
I'm very positive in my life and keep trying to put some joke or sarcasm in my posts here, or even trying to chew things up like if i'm talking to some child That's why i actually was thinking that my post may insult you BUT i haven't stopped and posted it, and I don't feel sorry about it. Cause if this tolerance will go on, then next year we'll be bringing "heavy apologies" for not saying "sorry" before saying "hi". I hope that you're also not having any hard feelings, and why don't we just throw some liquid sh!t to the propeller of this thread's theme? It's much more fun, isn't it?

Wow, ok. I get it......

Have fun. Be safe..............