Just how random ARE the random card generators in poker?

J

Jackdalad3

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
May 23, 2020
Total posts
2
Chips
0
Hi,
I am very new to poker online and I would like to know how true of a reflection of reality the random card generators are on poker sites.

Many thanks

Jack
 
M

mclaughlinph

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 26, 2019
Total posts
240
Chips
0
Hi,
I am very new to poker online and I would like to know how true of a reflection of reality the random card generators are on poker sites.

Many thanks

Jack


Playing online is different from playing in real life. The generators seem to create lots of action. What I mean by this is when you have a hand someone else also has a hand and it is almost always a sweat to the river. On your big hands where you are playing for alot or are all in and someone calls depending on what point of the tourney you are in depends on what seems to happen. With me if it is the start of a tourney I usually chip up and do well for a bit but after a while in the tourney you seem to go card dead or lose to some suck out by the river. This is the pattern I have noticed doesn't matter how you play or if you change up your play based on the way the cards are coming out or who you are playing it is the same result. And that result is that you make the money for a min cash or do not cash at all. It doesnt matter if I am playing in a 7900 man tourney or a 9 man sit and go. I get the same result which should not happen with a true deck of cards. If my playing style and skill allows me to run deep enough in a 7900 man tourney regularly to min cash I should have no problem consistently cashing in a 9 man tourney. But that is not the case I tend to fall just short of the money. That is the one thing the card generator has consistency on. This is cynical but sometimes I wonder if this is intentional so that I keep having to deposit more money. The more money in play the more rake pokerstars gets. I honestly think they would have to be pretty stupid and greedy to load the generators so people are always winning at the start of tourneys and then losing just before the money and redepositing it would be a big loss if they ever got caught. Especially when as it is they have thousands of people playing every day. But I wonder if the reason they only have thousands of people playing everyday is because of the amount of action that results when playing and the adrenaline rush you get when you do win or play a big hand which seems to occur regularly in a tourney.
 
J

Jackdalad3

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
May 23, 2020
Total posts
2
Chips
0
Thank you for the reply. I find your point of view very interesting and in fact I also have a theory not to dissimilar to this. I seem to suffer the same fate as you in the tournaments I’m playing. Unless I have perfect game play and apply perfect theory I don’t win. Always there or there about but no carrot. Thanks again for your insight.
 
fishfood80

fishfood80

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 17, 2015
Total posts
357
Chips
0
I think the goal of sites rng is to recreate randomness as best as they can. I don’t believe any computer generated system can be truly as random as the shuffling of the deck but it’s the best we have.
 
finaltable1

finaltable1

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Total posts
2,209
Awards
9
Chips
314
Hi,
I am very new to poker online and I would like to know how true of a reflection of reality the random card generators are on poker sites.

Many thanks

Jack


What do we know about the random card generators?

a) it's a program.
b) every program has front end and back end.
c) programs are made by humans.
d) humans lie.
e) the end.
 
roger perkins

roger perkins

Visionary
Platinum Level
Joined
Oct 21, 2015
Total posts
979
Awards
2
Chips
99
its totally random here is a post i made before to explain
Ok Im a former programmer I worked for AT&T and IBM. Let me tell you one way I would write a simple poker program. I would create an array simply put it is like a box with 52 boxes in it. I would load that array with the 52 cards randomly by using a random number generator from 1 to 52 and assigning each card a number. That mimics a shuffle. Then I could either start dealing out the cards starting at any point I want or randomly select the slots I would choose the cards from. Done, totally random and it would be no different than a live dealer shuffling a deck and dealing the cards. Now what you are implying is after this is done my program makes some sort of decision if A then B. It doesnt, a random program has no decision points other than is the slot I just chose empty (I have already chose that card) or full. To make this example equal a live dealer, he has 52 slots to put those cards in thinking each card is in its own slot while sitting in the deck. He shuffles them randomly filling the slots he then deals them out accordingly.
If you are not tired of reading then yes I could write a program that specifically deals the cards one way and favors certain players or manipulates the cards according to a flop or players hold cards. But that would not be a random deal and that would not pass any certification criteria.
 
K

kristersb123

Visionary
Bronze Level
Joined
Nov 5, 2018
Total posts
841
Awards
3
Chips
50
I watched about this in PokerStars youtube channel, there were scientists who said that card generation is totally random and there aren't patterns that can be traced. Most of people dont understand that online poker is much faster and more hands are dealt than offline so it leads to more suck-outs, coolers and other stuff.
 
manzanillo53

manzanillo53

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Total posts
1,220
Awards
2
Chips
57
Many would disagree with me, but I think it is not random in many cases. I believe that algorithms are play. This would take a deeper discussion another time.
 
S

successlaw

Visionary
Platinum Level
Joined
Sep 30, 2018
Total posts
985
Awards
2
Chips
100
The actual random in not a random at all...there is something like an formula behind that RNG..
 
acidburnfx

acidburnfx

Senior apprentice
Loyaler
Joined
May 18, 2013
Total posts
4,767
Awards
16
BR
Chips
874
Hi,
I am very new to poker online and I would like to know how true of a reflection of reality the random card generators are on poker sites.

Many thanks

Jack

See the explanation in the video below. Note that comments were enabled for anyone to express their opinions. After receiving much criticism, it was disabled. Coincidence only in that specific video? To reflect.

 
Swear Engine

Swear Engine

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 28, 2009
Total posts
387
Awards
1
Chips
4
I don't mind people saying it's not random. What irritates me is when their reason is because they don't win. I 100% guarantee that those players aren't losing because of any issue with an RNG. The answer is much closer to home.
 
Joe

Joe

99.98% Kiln dried
Bronze Level
Joined
May 28, 2016
Total posts
8,331
Awards
10
GB
Chips
110
A computer generated game will be more random than most live dealers.
 
E

emzadii

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 21, 2016
Total posts
132
Awards
1
Chips
52
its totally random here is a post i made before to explain
Ok Im a former programmer I worked for AT&T and IBM. Let me tell you one way I would write a simple poker program. I would create an array simply put it is like a box with 52 boxes in it. I would load that array with the 52 cards randomly by using a random number generator from 1 to 52 and assigning each card a number. That mimics a shuffle. Then I could either start dealing out the cards starting at any point I want or randomly select the slots I would choose the cards from. Done, totally random and it would be no different than a live dealer shuffling a deck and dealing the cards. Now what you are implying is after this is done my program makes some sort of decision if A then B. It doesnt, a random program has no decision points other than is the slot I just chose empty (I have already chose that card) or full. To make this example equal a live dealer, he has 52 slots to put those cards in thinking each card is in its own slot while sitting in the deck. He shuffles them randomly filling the slots he then deals them out accordingly.
If you are not tired of reading then yes I could write a program that specifically deals the cards one way and favors certain players or manipulates the cards according to a flop or players hold cards. But that would not be a random deal and that would not pass any certification criteria.


Hi Roger,

Could you point towards a way for me to program this on my own? I'm interested in testing some hypotheses (statistical propensity, gambler's fallacy, etc.) and I wish I could program an RCG instead of doing it by hand with a deck of cards over and over again. Thanks!
 
McFlySoHigh

McFlySoHigh

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 14, 2019
Total posts
9
Chips
0
I'm fairly certain that the RNGs do not produce a static deck that deals the cards out from a predetermined order. It would make sense for the deck to be in a state of constant shuffle even while a game/hand is being played.

The RNG system basically randomly deals a card from the available cards not previously dealt. There is likely no "deck".

My assumption is based that using a continuous shuffle, or random selection from the cards yet to be dealt, would increase the level of entropy and reduce any risk of a person being able to "hack" the deck to see what card is next to be dealt.

It's likely the RNG simply randomly selects any card from the available cards, and deals that card next.

There are no burn cards. There is no cutting of the deck. There isn't even a "shuffle" per se.

The cards are chosen at random starting from the 52 cards, and dealt out to the players and board. Once a card has been dealt, it's no longer available for the RNG to select.
 
McFlySoHigh

McFlySoHigh

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 14, 2019
Total posts
9
Chips
0
Hi Roger,

Could you point towards a way for me to program this on my own? I'm interested in testing some hypotheses (statistical propensity, gambler's fallacy, etc.) and I wish I could program an RCG instead of doing it by hand with a deck of cards over and over again. Thanks!

You could write a fairly simply... or fairly complex RNG/RCG using either AutoIt, or WinAutomation.

I personally use WinAutomation, and have written a few RNGs myself. Basically, choosing a random number say between 1 and 100. Rather than using the command "Generate Random Integer", I wrote my RNGs to generate a series of random integers, and letters, and then combine the outcome, which would trigger a specific type of outcome. So the RNG didn't simply choose a number, it did a series of selections, then the outcome would be interpreted as a final number.
 
roger perkins

roger perkins

Visionary
Platinum Level
Joined
Oct 21, 2015
Total posts
979
Awards
2
Chips
99
Hi Roger,

Could you point towards a way for me to program this on my own? I'm interested in testing some hypotheses (statistical propensity, gambler's fallacy, etc.) and I wish I could program an RCG instead of doing it by hand with a deck of cards over and over again. Thanks!
Do you have access to a compiler or a site where you can write code?
 
madbeeet

madbeeet

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 25, 2020
Total posts
240
Chips
0
In general, I think it is quite reliable. But the fact that the fish's weak hand that moves you on the river has more percent on the line before the flop makes me wonder)
 
E

emzadii

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 21, 2016
Total posts
132
Awards
1
Chips
52
Do you have access to a compiler or a site where you can write code?


Hi Roger,

No, I do not. I'm still at the stage of trying to figure out Windows Automation. :hmmmm2: Which compiler would you suggest?

I'm also trying to figure out if I could also program an RNG using Android Studio, if you have any tips.
 
F

fundiver199

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jun 3, 2019
Total posts
13,036
Awards
1
Chips
208
I don't mind people saying it's not random. What irritates me is when their reason is because they don't win. I 100% guarantee that those players aren't losing because of any issue with an RNG. The answer is much closer to home.

Exactly. This discussion about "rigged poker sites" is as old as online poker itself, and it will likely last as long, as online poker exists. But the real reasons, why most players lose, are a combination of the following:

1) They are not as good, as they think (ego)

2) They have played a completely insignificant number of hands / tournaments (variance)

3) Rake

The latter point is also why, the whole discussion is kind of silly. Poker sites dont need to implement some advanced cheating scheme to make money. All, they need to do, is to keep the gravy train rolling and cash in that rake.
 
R

rigor mortis

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 7, 2018
Total posts
234
Chips
0
There is nothing perfect about RNGs, while they are supposedly random unfortunately they are not. However any irregularities in their randomness are the same for all players and balance out. Anyway they are all we have to deal for us
 
D

Dhendrixon

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 27, 2020
Total posts
173
Awards
1
Chips
0
Hi,
I am very new to poker online and I would like to know how true of a reflection of reality the random card generators are on poker sites.

Many thanks

Jack


That question comes up quite a bit. These rooms do have certifications that they do go through, and who would want to play at a room that is known for cheating? Also, you see a lot more hands in online than you do at a live setting, so you will see a lot more bad beats, etc. If you have a basic solid foundation for pre-flop and follow up with a decent post flop game, you should able to see that it all works out at the end.
 
M

mclaughlinph

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 26, 2019
Total posts
240
Chips
0
I am not sure anymore I played pokerstars for a lot of years and cashed quite a bit. I developed my game watched streamers and took courses to improve. Regardless of how my play developed I could not win more than I lost on pokerstars website. This is over an 8 year period. I now play a different site which is softer there isnt as much action but in a month and a half I am up $600 and I am not redepositing. There isn't nearly as many bad beats and I don't have as many suck outs on others like I do every time I play pokerstars. I do believe pokerstars generator is geared to create more action for all the players to encourage people playing and depositing more money.
 
ADRI7HO

ADRI7HO

On the road...
Loyaler
Joined
May 6, 2020
Total posts
6,815
Awards
9
Chips
224
To be sure, if someone has ever played live it feels like these random number generators aren’t really modeling reality correctly.
I could also say that random number generators :pcguru: have probably never played poker live. :D
 
Top