Someone else mucked my cards

[Hughsthis]

In a small pub Holdem tournament run by a guy who is normally great at making decisions after unusual events, the following occurred:
With big Blinds on 2,000. I was dealing and had AK. Everyone folded round to me and I limped with 2,000. Small Blind shoved 4,000. Big blind folded and I snap called (from my 7,000 stack) declaring AK. When I went to turn my cards over, I saw there were 4 cards in front of me. What I hadn't noticed was that the BB's mucked cards had accidentally been thrown across the rather narrow table and ended up on top of mine. "All in" turned over JQ. Then a discussion started about "touching mucked cards" so my hand should be voided (even though behind the betting line). I knew I had AK and BB confirmed his cards (not a problem with only 4 cards to sort out), so I felt it was completely unjustified to have to give up the hand through no fault of my own, and to more than double up a person who was very likely to have been knocked out.
The tournament director said that unfortunately "those were the rules". I said under the circumstances this was a very unfair decision. Later he did concede that I should only have lost 2,000 as my cards were "dead" when I called the "All In".
In my view there were three options:
(1) The "rules are rules" situation decribed above.
(2) In the spirit of "fair play", and with no chance of the 4 cards being mixed up, the TD could have agreed to play out the heads up showdown.
(3) We could have voided the hand and taken chips back.
Any thoughts / comments would be appreciated.

 

[Pablo22]

It doesn't seem fair what happened to you. I use a chip as a card protector to avoid these situations.

 

[TJH90]

Surely you just lose your limp in as soon as he says your cards aren't active. Very harsh outcome.

 

[PHX]

What the tournament director says is what you must abide by whether or not they are right.

They did screw you here even if they ruled your hand dead they should not have taken the extra 5K as it was an all in.

If I was you I would take it as a bad beat think of it as the QJ running you down, play out rest of game and then never go back there.

 

[Hughsthis]

It doesn't seem fair what happened to you. I use a chip as a card protector to avoid these situations.

I noted elsewhere in this Forum that card guards do not help if the cards touch.

 

[prizzy711]

I noted elsewhere in this Forum that card guards do not help if the cards touch.

So someone can throw their cards and touch yours and your cards are dead. Even under a protector?

 

[mtl mile end]

In a small pub Holdem tournament run by a guy who is normally great at making decisions after unusual events, the following occurred:
With big Blinds on 2,000. I was dealing and had AK. Everyone folded round to me and I limped with 2,000. Small Blind shoved 4,000. Big blind folded and I snap called (from my 7,000 stack) declaring AK. When I went to turn my cards over, I saw there were 4 cards in front of me. What I hadn't noticed was that the BB's mucked cards had accidentally been thrown across the rather narrow table and ended up on top of mine. "All in" turned over JQ. Then a discussion started about "touching mucked cards" so my hand should be voided (even though behind the betting line). I knew I had AK and BB confirmed his cards (not a problem with only 4 cards to sort out), so I felt it was completely unjustified to have to give up the hand through no fault of my own, and to more than double up a person who was very likely to have been knocked out.
The tournament director said that unfortunately "those were the rules". I said under the circumstances this was a very unfair decision. Later he did concede that I should only have lost 2,000 as my cards were "dead" when I called the "All In".
In my view there were three options:
(1) The "rules are rules" situation decribed above.
(2) In the spirit of "fair play", and with no chance of the 4 cards being mixed up, the TD could have agreed to play out the heads up showdown.
(3) We could have voided the hand and taken chips back.
Any thoughts / comments would be appreciated.

I hesitate to reply to this kind of question from a noob, but here goes:

Firstly: ALWAYS PROTECT YOUR HAND. This is solely your responsibility. This will prevent accidental mucking. It will not, however, prevent ANY MUCKED CARD FROM TOUCHING YOUR HAND.

Secondly: There is no such rule in Robert's Rules of Poker. The TD is making his own rules, or he is an idiot. If he is making up his own rules, he should have them in writing. At the very least he damn well better follow them in a logical fashion. If you are making up a "no muck card may touch a live hand or it (the live hand) is dead" rule, then you should understand the implications and consequences of such an action. What is the penalty for the mucker? What is the penalty for the person who didn't protect their cards? How the f*ck can you take the chips from a call from a mucked hand? etc, etc.

From RRoP:
Under "Irregularities":
2.You must protect your own hand at all times. Your cards may be protected with your hands, a chip, or other object placed on top of them. If you fail to protect your hand, you will have no redress if it becomes fouled or the dealer accidentally kills it.

Under "Dead Hands":
2.Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of false information given to the player.
and:
3.Cards thrown into another player’s hand are dead, whether they are faceup or facedown.


I would point out the TD's obvious deficiencies in the performance of his "job" and make him read Robert's Rules of Poker, or make him write down his own rules. Next time you are playing in a tourney with him, get a careful read. Whenever he looks super strong, muck your cards directly at his hand. If you hit them, he's out. Dodgeball Poker! Or... he will make up a rule that you can't throw your mucks into someone else's hand. :idea:

 

[mtl mile end]

I noted elsewhere in this Forum that card guards do not help if the cards touch.

Source?

 

[Pickat]

It's unfortunate and unfair what happened to you , but you always need to protect your hand .Especially when you're the dealer . Many players throw their mucked cards towards you because you are the dealer . You could lose your hand before you even look at them . Best of luck in the future .

 

[Rolco]

It sounds like you're playing poker with a bunch of fish.

 

[hugh blair]

You have strange first name say you had terrible childhood being called hugh just joking sounds like that game has gone to the dogs.

 

[Razaedge]

Terrible

very unfortunate. I agree with most of the others that the rules should be clearly outlined if the TD is to make calls like this.

 

[benitwapasu]

I guess in this situation, if it was not a requirement to turn in ones guns upon entry in the pub, then the tournament director should have been shot and peed upon (not necessarily in that order)

 

[veronica721]

Wrong

In a small pub Holdem tournament run by a guy who is normally great at making decisions after unusual events, the following occurred:
With big Blinds on 2,000. I was dealing and had AK. Everyone folded round to me and I limped with 2,000. Small Blind shoved 4,000. Big blind folded and I snap called (from my 7,000 stack) declaring AK. When I went to turn my cards over, I saw there were 4 cards in front of me. What I hadn't noticed was that the BB's mucked cards had accidentally been thrown across the rather narrow table and ended up on top of mine. "All in" turned over JQ. Then a discussion started about "touching mucked cards" so my hand should be voided (even though behind the betting line). I knew I had AK and BB confirmed his cards (not a problem with only 4 cards to sort out), so I felt it was completely unjustified to have to give up the hand through no fault of my own, and to more than double up a person who was very likely to have been knocked out.
The tournament director said that unfortunately "those were the rules". I said under the circumstances this was a very unfair decision. Later he did concede that I should only have lost 2,000 as my cards were "dead" when I called the "All In".
In my view there were three options:
(1) The "rules are rules" situation decribed above.
(2) In the spirit of "fair play", and with no chance of the 4 cards being mixed up, the TD could have agreed to play out the heads up showdown.
(3) We could have voided the hand and taken chips back.
Any thoughts / comments would be appreciated.

I believe this decision was completely unfair! There are exceptions to every rule and this was one of those exceptions. I don't think that I would have excepted this decision. Were there any ways to challenge the decision?

 

[danoscar]

Here Ya' Go

The attachment is a page copy from the following link:


https://poker.stackexchange.com/questions/9680/does-touching-the-muck-mean-anything-in-a-casino


I think you will find the answer here from a 20 year Atlantic City table guy fascinating.

Sorry to hear about your misfortune.

Dan'O
Gader

 

[Hughsthis]

Source?

Apologies the quote was from another site (an interesting thread though):
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27/casino-amp-cardroom-poker/can-your-hand-mucked-if-you-have-card-protector-590070/
At the end of the day, as you've stated, I think that the RRoP "Dead Hands":
2.Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game, would have been an acknowledged and fairest way of dealing with the situation.
Thanks to all for you comments (and sympathy lol)

 

[Vilgeoforc]

Unfortunately it was your mistake because you were on button. If you have dealt the cards, the responsibility for the cards lies with you. If a professional dealer distributes, the responsibility is on him. Of course, the Director could well cancel the hand, if you were not mistaken before. But you decided to punish the most severe way and I do not see injustice here. Be careful-protect your hand.

 

[Joe]

Card protectors. [emoji1303]

If you have a chip or card protector on your hole cards they are not dead when a mucked hand is thrown onto them.

Simple.

Unlucky though!

 

[ScooperNova]

I’ve never seen that happen in thousands of live hands. It seems like one would have to be acting like a jackass to muck you cards onto someone else’s hand placed in proper position behind the bet line. I’m wondering if there was a reason the player was mucking so carelessly, such as an emotional outburst or a few to many high balls. I guess it’s not outside the realm of possibility that someone accidentally made a muck that bad. I mucked my cards in Omaha once and accidentally flipped them all face up. People were wigging out lol.

 

[Beanfacekilla]

You said you were dealing? Like you were actually pitching the cards yourself and there was a tournament director?


That seems strange if that's the case. I would never play a place that allowed players to deal. Seems shady.

However, I do have one piece of advice for you for the future. The moment that you vpip, you hold your cards like this and you don't let them go until the hand is over. You bet with the other hand.

I have actually seen other players muck on top of people's hands and kill them. Protect your cards, it is your responsibility.

 

[mtl mile end]

You said you were dealing? Like you were actually pitching the cards yourself and there was a tournament director?


That seems strange if that's the case. I would never play a place that allowed players to deal. Seems shady.

However, I do have one piece of advice for you for the future. The moment that you vpip, you hold your cards like this and you don't let them go until the hand is over. You bet with the other hand.

I have actually seen other players muck on top of people's hands and kill them. Protect your cards, it is your responsibility.

Sure, that sounds reasonable, but this will not prevent the invocation of the "muck cards touch your hand and your hand is dead 'rule' ". Dodgeball Poker FTW!! :dancing2:

 

[Beanfacekilla]

Sure, that sounds reasonable, but this will not prevent the invocation of the "muck cards touch your hand and your hand is dead 'rule' ". Dodgeball Poker FTW!! :dancing2:

Um, yes it will? I hold my cards like this every hand. It would literally be impossible to kill my hand no matter how you throw the cards at it.

I cage it all four sides as seen.

Lol dude. "Dodgeball poker FTW" made me chuckle.

 

[mtl mile end]

Um, yes it will? I hold my cards like this every hand. It would literally be impossible to kill my hand no matter how you throw the cards at it.

I cage it all four sides as seen.

Lol dude. "Dodgeball poker FTW" made me chuckle.

But OP seems to suggest "if muck cards touch a live hand, the live hand is dead". He even references a 2+2 discussion and a debate that ensued in this tourney. This is definitely not mentioned in Robert's Rules of Poker. In fact, this kind of interpretation is specifically contradicted in RRoP (see my references in post #7). I like to envision a poker world where this rule was in play. If this were the case, I bet I could kill your hand with my mucks from any seat at the table - four finger cage be damned. Chris Ferguson can cut a carrot in half with a playing card - he could be the World Champion of Poker! - oh, wait a minute....maybe that's how he did it!

 

[Beanfacekilla]

But OP seems to suggest "if muck cards touch a live hand, the live hand is dead". He even references a 2+2 discussion and a debate that ensued in this tourney. This is definitely not mentioned in Robert's Rules of Poker. In fact, this kind of interpretation is specifically contradicted in RRoP (see my references in post #7). I like to envision a poker world where this rule was in play. If this were the case, I bet I could kill your hand with my mucks from any seat at the table - four finger cage be damned. Chris Ferguson can cut a carrot in half with a playing card - he could be the World Champion of Poker! - oh, wait a minute....maybe that's how he did it!

I didn't read the 2p2 thread, but I am familiar with the concept of cards "touching" a other hand.

I know for a fact they don't muck your cards (at any room I've ever played in) just because someone mucks and touches your cards.

Heavy card protectors work, but caging cards is the nuts dude. I can guarantee, with 100% certainty, no matter what you did, threw your cards at mine, etc, my hand would be live. It's happened to me more than once. Dumb asses at 1/2 tables all butt hurt about losing a hand throwing cards and hitting my cards, my hands, whatever. Never has my hand been killed. It is totally clear where my cards are, and that they haven't been compromised, nor could anyone claim we are colluding (which is why they have that rule if someone mucks on top of your shit).

I've just seen too many people not protecting their hand, then dealer swipes it, or it gets mucked on top of, etc.

I never have a problem since I started holding my cards.


I think some people may misinterpret this "if they touch your cards, they're dead" rule.

 

[mtl mile end]

I didn't read the 2p2 thread, but I am familiar with the concept of cards "touching" a other hand.

I know for a fact they don't muck your cards (at any room I've ever played in) just because someone mucks and touches your cards.

Heavy card protectors work, but caging cards is the nuts dude. I can guarantee, with 100% certainty, no matter what you did, threw your cards at mine, etc, my hand would be live. It's happened to me more than once. Dumb asses at 1/2 tables all butt hurt about losing a hand throwing cards and hitting my cards, my hands, whatever. Never has my hand been killed. It is totally clear where my cards are, and that they haven't been compromised, nor could anyone claim we are colluding (which is why they have that rule if someone mucks on top of your shit).

I've just seen too many people not protecting their hand, then dealer swipes it, or it gets mucked on top of, etc.

I never have a problem since I started holding my cards.


I think some people may misinterpret this "if they touch your cards, they're dead" rule.

Exactly. But if we were playing Dodgeball Poker, you would definitely have to up your game from the finger cage - one touch and you're out. If you protect the four sides, I can go for the corners or vice versa. It would have to be a "finger wall" at the very least.