If a man won this hand, would he be criticized as much?

[blkmoney12]

Recently, I was reviewing the 2017 Bar Poker Open on YouTube.

There was a hand at the final table, between the chip leader and 2nd in chips which ended up being pivotal. The details in the hand are in the video link below at 41 minutes 36 seconds.

Try to pay attention to the commentary after the hand as it was interesting in that the commentators seemed to be willing to give a pass to the outcome of the hand. While the tournament was on Twitch, there was a lot of criticism from the rail. While revisiting this game, it made me wonder if a man would have been criticized as heavily for making the same play?


What do you think?

 

[Edu1]

if the question is about A4h vs QQ

but there's a player with 1bb, by the ICM math, the play she made is wrong, I think if a man do the same, he would be criticized too, that was a bad play in my opnion, because she know is behind with this marginal hand when she pay.

 

[DS3]

First.

Thanks for the clip as it really is an excellent one to discuss, specific to the perception of men vs women players.

I'll be honest and admit that it was not a play I would make and it is somewhat easy to declare it a bad play.

However, I was not aware of the table dynamics and did note the commentators say that Nick and Caryn were two of the big stacks that were dominating the table. Perhaps Caryn felt Nick was getting out of line and stealing too many pots and he was attempting to do likewise to her when she was second in chips.

However....if you let the video run, the commentators then explain this was the second time she had gotten away with such a play, the earlier hand being 83, where she flopped and then rivered a three against pocket tens.

So she's obviously a gambler and I would like to think any guy would be criticized in the same manner (although the room seemed to like the run good).

 

[Shells]

Thanks for this one.

As far as the level of criticism that Caryn may have received, it would be no surprise, given her style of play, that she has faced criticism in the past and hasn't stopped her from continuing to play poker. So in this case, it didn't seem that Caryn was bothered by it. Any other woman might have been though. The trouble mostly is the language that is used by some people who choose to throw their 2 cents into the conversation. To some people, there are no boundaries. But that was in 2017! Given the heightened women's sexual harassment awareness brought on with the 'Me Too' movement, for example, those who had choice words for her then would be quickly taken down and very likely verbally attacked themselves.

BUT would a man have received as much criticism? I'm sure a man would have received some but can't be sure if the jabs would have gone on quite as long, as you had mentioned.

If we were responding to Caryn's call (this would make zero difference if man or woman), she definitely has a lot of 'gamble' in her. The 83 hand earlier was kind of a no-brainer to call - she was in the BB if i remember right, and only needed to call 1BB to play out the hand. So there is that. The A4 vs QQ hand, it's very unlikely that I would have called. All in pre? Nah.

 

[blkmoney12]

Ty for ur comment

First.

Thanks for the clip as it really is an excellent one to discuss, specific to the perception of men vs women players.

I'll be honest and admit that it was not a play I would make and it is somewhat easy to declare it a bad play.

However, I was not aware of the table dynamics and did note the commentators say that Nick and Caryn were two of the big stacks that were dominating the table. Perhaps Caryn felt Nick was getting out of line and stealing too many pots and he was attempting to do likewise to her when she was second in chips.

However....if you let the video run, the commentators then explain this was the second time she had gotten away with such a play, the earlier hand being 83, where she flopped and then rivered a three against pocket tens.

So she's obviously a gambler and I would like to think any guy would be criticized in the same manner (although the room seemed to like the run good).

I read that u thought that Caryn thought that Nick was getting out of line which could be correct how ever it is on thing to do re shove it is another thing all together to call of all of ur chips on a 4 bet re-shove all in that's a very different thing that's all I'm saying

 

[DS3]

I read that u thought that Caryn thought that Nick was getting out of line which could be correct how ever it is on thing to do re shove it is another thing all together to call of all of ur chips on a 4 bet re-shove all in that's a very different thing that's all I'm saying

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I gave an accurate reflection of how things struck me as I watched the video for the first time. However, I stated it was not a play I would make at the outset and then stated further

However....if you let the video run, the commentators then explain this was the second time she had gotten away with such a play, the earlier hand being 83, where she flopped and then rivered a three against pocket tens.

So she's obviously a gambler and I would like to think any guy would be criticized in the same manner (although the room seemed to like the run good).

I was attempting to be neutral. I did not level any criticism of your post – in fact I thanked you for making an interesting post.

So, not quite sure what this reply is about. [/FONT]

 

[rock0001]

the 3 bet light was a good play but the call after he shoves is usually a bad play... the good thing about hands like A2, A3, A4 and A5 suited is that they have lot of equity even against hands like ak or aq, so unless villain had aces the odds of winning the hand will be at least 30% however i think she should have folded the hand after he shoves but she decided to call and got lucky on the river.

 

[otmputquant]

Personally, I don't think it was the best play but ultimately it is up to her to make those decisions and own the results. In general women are judged more harshly for making risky decisions or for not taking a passive approach... I see it all the time in corporate America. I don't think that it is fair and I would hope gender did not play a role in peoples judgements.

 

[Shells]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I gave an accurate reflection of how things struck me as I watched the video for the first time. However, I stated it was not a play I would make at the outset and then stated further

However....if you let the video run, the commentators then explain this was the second time she had gotten away with such a play, the earlier hand being 83, where she flopped and then rivered a three against pocket tens.So she's obviously a gambler and I would like to think any guy would be criticized in the same manner (although the room seemed to like the run good).

I was attempting to be neutral. I did not level any criticism of your post – in fact I thanked you for making an interesting post.

So, not quite sure what this reply is about. [/FONT]

I don't think he meant anything by that last little bit on his response comment to you - it's just a term used loosely (and could be misunderstood) after some statements.

 

[Luvepoker]

I used to play in bar leagues before covid but not bar poker opens. One thing that always got me was there was a lot of wild play at times. I also have to say there was a lot of people rudely belittling other new players at times. This is part of the reason I believe the leagues were starting to fail in our area prior to covid. It went both against men and the women.

As for what was happening in the chat when this happened, it's sad people would do that. There is no reason to be rude or abusive. Why some people do this is beyond my reasonable thought.


As for Caryn and her play, I won't really go into it, but I would have folded to the 4bet jam there.

 

[JordanH]

One thing I've learned about poker is that anything can and does happen. Have I seen male players make the same sort of play/call? Absolutely! Every day and twice on Sunday. Watch Nick's expression after the cards were turned over. He was not surprised and he was concerned. Why? Because he's been in that sort of situation many times, on both sides. It's not over till the river card falls.

Why did the female commentator feel the need to announce in the video that the chat was getting down and dirty? What was that all about? That was her back-handed slap across the face to female players everywhere.

I don't even leave chat on anymore when I play. Why? Because there are lots of ignorant people who always feel they have the right to get nasty in anonymous chat. In this world it's so much easier to do it when the target is a woman.

BTW - QhQs v Ah4h is a 2:1 situation, a lot better than QQ v JJ or KK v QQ or even AA v KK which are all 4.5:1. Would anybody criticize her for making the same play w/ JJ (or QQ or KK)? Not likely even though the odds would be much less favorable.

 

[Poker Orifice]

One thing I've learned about poker is that anything can and does happen. Have I seen male players make the same sort of play/call? Absolutely! Every day and twice on Sunday. Watch Nick's expression after the cards were turned over. He was not surprised and he was concerned. Why? Because he's been in that sort of situation many times, on both sides. It's not over till the river card falls.

Why did the female commentator feel the need to announce in the video that the chat was getting down and dirty? What was that all about? That was her back-handed slap across the face to female players everywhere.

I don't even leave chat on anymore when I play. Why? Because there are lots of ignorant people who always feel they have the right to get nasty in anonymous chat. In this world it's so much easier to do it when the target is a woman.

BTW - QhQs v Ah4h is a 2:1 situation, a lot better than QQ v JJ or KK v QQ or even AA v KK which are all 4.5:1. Would anybody criticize her for making the same play w/ JJ (or QQ or KK)? Not likely even though the odds would be much less favorable.

belittling ANYONE at a poker table is TERRIBLE (why would they want a bad player to play differently or better? why would they want a bad player to not feel comfortable (while playing badly)).

As far as the chat goes... I didn't bother to watch the video past the point where the call was made. There's always loads of idiots on the rail... just try watching a poker pro on Twitch for awhile... you'll see a ton of armchair pros commenting who really don't have a clue what they're talking about.

As far as the hand in question goes... when she makes the call she has no clue that Nick is holding QQ. Not only does she need to figure what 'range of hands' she's up against in this spot, the absolute worst part of the call is she is committing 'ICM-SUICIDE' (look at the sizes of the other stacks on the table). By making this call she is actually printing money for Adam, Zach, Sue and especially Tom.

It's a TERRIBLE call. Honestly, JJ might be a fold in that spot (I don't know the payout structure so can't comment for certain).

 

[terryk]

Bad poker is bad poker,,,, doens't matter whats between your legs,,it's what between your ears. :deal:

 

[mara2259]

the 3 bet light was a good play but the call after he shoves is usually a bad play... the good thing about hands like A2, A3, A4 and A5 suited is that they have lot of equity even against hands like ak or aq, so unless villain had aces the odds of winning the hand will be at least 30% however i think she should have folded the hand after he shoves but she decided to call and got lucky on the river.

From a mathematical point of view, the game of both participants with hands A7, A5 is not impressive. But I must say that it was precisely this tactic that brought them to the final table of a rather weak tournament. The girl should fold, but she somehow felt that she was stronger. The guy did something stupid, but if he caught 5 everyone admired his intuition. It's funny to hear comments from onlookers loitering around the table, or from us glorious freeroll workers. Just went all-in on the first hand on the final table. AK versus K10 of course 10 on the river. And I am absolutely not comforted by the fact that I played correctly and at a long distance it is a plus. But it still needs to be passed.

 

[Poker Orifice]

The guy did something stupid, but if he caught 5 everyone admired his intuition..

LOL I'm curious to know who 'everyone' is that would 'admire' the intuition.

 

[mara2259]

LOL I'm curious to know who 'everyone' is that would 'admire' the intuition.

Apparently you're not one of them, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. It is enough to listen to the comments to some decent tournament. If a guy on the final table folds pocket aces after raising and reraising preflop, then he is hardly guided by mathematics. In this situation, he thought only about the amount of prize money. And what was the audience's admiration when four of a kind jacks beat pocket kings. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is my opinion..

 

[Poker_Mike]

I read that u thought that Caryn thought that Nick was getting out of line which could be correct how ever it is on thing to do re shove it is another thing all together to call of all of ur chips on a 4 bet re-shove all in that's a very different thing that's all I'm saying

That questionable play was because it was a "bar league" and not because she is a woman (as one of the commentators noted).

Caryn honestly seemed full of nervous energy - seems like she didn't know what to do in that situation - and so she chose to call a preflop shove.

Bar leagues promote wild action and really bad play. The worst part about bar leagues is that the players don't know how bad their play is.

I can recite hands that felted me with bar league players and it takes me 3 hours to get my money back!

I would have liked to be at the Golden Nugget that day!!

And of course she wins the tournament for $40k that day!

 

[nutself]

She took a huge risk and gained a big reward, the saying is "With great risk comes great reward", I think she may deserve the result.

If she is indeed a less skilled player than her opponent, she would be outplayed postflop, and had difficult getting her opponent all-in preflop when she does have an advantage, therefore this may be the best chance she could get even if somehow she saw villain's hole cards.

 

[Poker_Mike]

She took a huge risk and gained a big reward, the saying is "With great risk comes great reward", I think she may deserve the result.

If she is indeed a less skilled player than her opponent, she would be outplayed postflop, and had difficult getting her opponent all-in preflop when she does have an advantage, therefore this may be the best chance she could get even if somehow she saw villain's hole cards.

I agree that she deserves the reward - no question.

She took the risk and so she deserves the pot - which helped her win the tournament.

But I think she would have folded preflop if she saw her villain's strong hole cards.

 

[nutself]

I agree that she deserves the reward - no question.

She took the risk and so she deserves the pot - which helped her win the tournament.

But I think she would have folded preflop if she saw her villain's strong hole cards.

Yes, unable to see villain's hole cards gave her the courage to call with her nice looking cards, too much knowledge is a bad thing sometimes.

 

[Poker Orifice]

She took a huge risk and gained a big reward, the saying is "With great risk comes great reward", I think she may deserve the result.

If she is indeed a less skilled player than her opponent, she would be outplayed postflop, and had difficult getting her opponent all-in preflop when she does have an advantage, therefore this may be the best chance she could get even if somehow she saw villain's hole cards.

I agree that she deserves the reward - no question.

She took the risk and so she deserves the pot - which helped her win the tournament.

But I think she would have folded preflop if she saw her villain's strong hole cards.

You guys are kidding... right

This is ICM suicide! It's a terrible play. (maybe I shouldn't say anything... )

 

[Poker_Mike]

You guys are kidding... right

This is ICM suicide! It's a terrible play. (maybe I shouldn't say anything... )

She doesn't seem to put him on a range.

If she did then she would realize that she is at ~30% preflop at best.

She convulses with uncertainty and then to avoid that uncomfortable emotion she calls.

So IMO if she is willing to get her equity in badly - she deserves the pot if she wins.

Do you think QQ could have gotten away from the hand if he just flatted every street?

Could he have folded the river? Not sure I would have.

But to your point - this play was so bad that she was good.

I like the 3-bet but she can't fold Ace-rag preflop for all your marbles??? - he had her covered.

I'll say it again - Bar League lol

 

[blkmoney12]

Good morning to you all thank you for all the comments it seems to be getting a lot of steam. I'm going to leave you a couple of things here for you to look at. First thing is the prize pool for the tournament for the last 10 players I have screenshotted that and it will be at the bottom of this message. Second screenshot I took which will be at the bottom of the message also is the chip positions of the players before that hand there was some that didn't know what the chip positions were or the price pool so I have both of them on screenshot for you to look at at your earliest convenience. I was noticing in the comment how this play was ICM suicide. Let me remind you got the BPO tournament that she played in was for free. She had to qualify at her local bar that ran BPO tournaments she had to finish in the top three to get a token for the online tournament which was held every Sunday at 11 a.m.. Depending on how many entries enter the tournament on Sunday satellite seats for that tournament would be up for grabs. So the question of ICM I guess in her mind will be the furthest thing from her mind. Also keep in mind that this is probably the biggest spot she's ever been in so in that way I can give her a little bit of a break there the play was still bad but from a ICM perspective she probably had no knowledge of it whatsoever and that was the furthest thing from her mind, in my opinion. Screenshot of the prize pool https://screenrec.com/share/YM6HJpublP. Screenshot Of the chip counts https://screenrec.com/share/fEgUQpobnh

 

[Emily Trott]

"Sometimes nothing can be a real cool hand." - Lucas Jackson

 

[Secret Rival]

In the day of the internet perfect manners at all times is demanded of some.
If not, you might go viral and get fired. No more getting pissed off and telling someone to go **** themselves in an argument.