Why I am not a fan of starting from $0

vinylspiros · Aug 24, 2013

I think the answer to this question is easy. Poker is a game played with either chips or cash. These chips cost money. If you dont have money you cant play poker. In poker, it takes money to make money.

Trying to make money from 0 is hard and not fun and too stressfull. I mean, whats 100-200$? its like dinner with wife or night out at the town for drinks. But its also 20 buy ins at 5 NL meaning almost a healthy bankroll. Take your pick. If you feel that 1 year of your time or even 6 months is worth 100 bucks then be my guest and freeroll. I'll take the easier way and enjoy what a deposit will offer me on the tables. And that is, ALOT of hands at 5NL, instead of being tortured by suckout after suckout at DONKAMENTS.

dj11 · Aug 24, 2013

IMHO, it boils down to affordability. If I were filthy rich, I would never have gone the way I did. I have not been filthy rich in this incarnation.

I could not, or maybe would not, have deposited with my meager income, but wanted to be playing poker for the mental stimulus, the camaraderie, and the competition all of that equals entertainment. I treated, and still treat poker as a sport. Knowing the field in any type of sport is part of the game, so knowing that the field is full of fish, or has no fish in it, is a part of each days learning process.

I count myself as a graduate of the Ferguson School of BRM. Once I graduated, I pretty much threw all that away and my recent results have suffered from some sort of ego-centric expectation that I am better than my results. This self delusion is costing me money these days, and only when I can real myself in will the results return.

So, again IMHO, the Ferguson Challenge is a learning tool, as well as a set of personal guidelines that in and of themselves are a +EV proposition.

We can learn most of the basics of good poker via cheap/free poker. We can make and learn how to make good poker decisions without a results oriented frame of mind.

However, the road to riches via free poker is the long road. I have always known that. Part of my delusions are that the long road is the scenic route...

vinylspiros · Aug 24, 2013

dj11 said:
IMHO, it boils down to affordability. If I were filthy rich, I would never have gone the way I did. I have not been filthy rich in this incarnation.

I could not, or maybe would not, have deposited with my meager income, but wanted to be playing poker for the mental stimulus, the camaraderie, and the competition all of that equals entertainment. I treated, and still treat poker as a sport. Knowing the field in any type of sport is part of the game, so knowing that the field is full of fish, or has no fish in it, is a part of each days learning process.

I count myself as a graduate of the Ferguson School of BRM. Once I graduated, I pretty much threw all that away and my recent results have suffered from some sort of ego-centric expectation that I am better than my results. This self delusion is costing me money these days, and only when I can real myself in will the results return.

So, again IMHO, the Ferguson Challenge is a learning tool, as well as a set of personal guidelines that in and of themselves are a +EV proposition.

We can learn most of the basics of good poker via cheap/free poker. We can make and learn how to make good poker decisions without a results oriented frame of mind.

However, the road to riches via free poker is the long road. I have always known that. Part of my delusions are that the long road is the scenic route...

^^ You should be s writer. That was a good line.

Kluchtzanger · Aug 24, 2013

building up bankroll from 0 is good i think...
You will pass any kind type of players on making bank...

vinnie · Aug 24, 2013

I feel like a lot of people read this and think I am saying, "Don't start at the bottom and work your way up." This is not at all what I am saying. I am saying that trying to build a bankroll from $0 by playing freerolls and then 'pretending' to practice bankroll management, until you get lucky and actually have more than 20 buy-ins for the micros, is almost certainly a waste of time and not the benefit to your play that most people make it out to be.

If you built your bankroll from freerolls and worked your way up, you are not a better player than someone who deposited, started at the bottom, and worked their way up to where you are. What you really are is several months (potentially even years) behind where you could be.

shep222 · Aug 24, 2013

I understand the concept of playing the Ferguson challenge but dont agree or disagree with it. It just depends on the player.
I find that someone who starts with $0 really doesnt have respect for the money that they do eventually have to play with. Most players are not diciplined enough to turn the little into alot so they never cash anything out.
But the player that does make a deposit knows that was their money. Its an investment to play for some, and a recreation expense to others.
I have made PLENTY of deposits over the years over several sites. I started on Golden Palace until they no longer allowed US players. And I have cashed much more than I deposited.
I have also played in several Freerolls that I have parlayed up to several thosands of dollars. But it was my respect of my DEPOSITS that allowed me take advantage of small wins that turned into big ones.
The irony is that I am playing in a Bovado Freeroll while I'm writing this.

LD1977 · Aug 28, 2013

I have to disagree only because:

1) I did it and it was pretty easy even though I was literally a complete beginner when it comes to NLHE (I played some FLHE like 5 years before and I sucked at it).

2) Bigger reason - It all depends exclusively on the site and freerolls available. FTP had really great freerolls until they cancelled them recently and now they are total garbage.

3) Here is the REALLY big one - For a beginner, BR and experience grow simultaneously! If someone is not patient enough to do it, well, this is the cheap way to find out.

In my 1st month I went from zero to 130$ playing only freerolls and 2NL (where I run really well). It helped that there were less players on the site then (December) so it was easier to get the free $$$. Think 4.5k players instead of 7.5k. It was my best month before this one (only due to a promotion) since after that I started working on my cash game and there were some ups and downs

My first sit on a cash table was with 6.5$ bankroll after I took 4.5$ in a freeroll and 2$ in Croatia freeroll (those were great

). I bought in for the minimum, 0.8$ IIRC

BTW I used an extremely simplistic strategy while watching TV and surfing the Web on the side. No HEM, no blind stealing, no table observation, no putting people on ranges, no anything resembling having a clue.

The only problem I had was that my simplistic strategy was great at getting me into last 200-400 players but with only 45 prizes I had to figure out how to actually finish the tournament

Basically if you have the time you can play freerolls on 3-4 sites simultaneously while watching TV and in a month you will be good on at least 2 sites to start 2NL cash play with a decent BR (lets face it 2NL is easy peasy).

stevenright · Aug 28, 2013

If you play good there are incredible freerolls like CC or 833 that you will likely get in the money and maybe start a good bankroll.

If you don't have to patience to wait for those, just deposit any money and make your way to the top... i advice put $20 that is a lot of play with that amount

i prefer to deposit too

LD1977 · Aug 29, 2013

Depositing sucks since it activates First Deposit bonus.

Since max bonus on FTP is 600$ it seems like a horrible waste to use it while being unable to clear it. So I wait until I can clear it easily and surely. That will be at 25NL level, I could do it at 10NL but it is riskier since it would take much longer and then life can intervene.

DrazaFFT · Aug 29, 2013

You have a good point LD, i wanted to deposit on FTP just to play first depositor FR, they looks like an easy ITM but after reading your post i think that you are right and that it is good idea to maximize your bonuses, im really far from being able to do that but im really considering to delay my first deposit till im able to play good enough to achieve max bonus!!!!

italiano · Aug 29, 2013

very good post! There are many interesting topics and well-argued
It is clear that starting from scratch is hard but I've been on both sides as well as the banking and how of building your bank through freerolls and enhanced by Sn'G and I must say that my best results were when they deposit , there was my best poker, but hey each adapts to what you see out in my case it shows that I get along with the free! (note that not always)

vinnie · Aug 29, 2013

LD1977 said:
I have to disagree only because:

1) I did it and it was pretty easy even though I was literally a complete beginner

[...]

In my 1st month I went from zero to 130$ playing only freerolls and 2NL (where I run really well).

Don't you see why this reeks of selection bias? You believe it was really easy because you managed to run up a bankroll like that in under a month. All the people who failed aren't around to talk about it. I am willing to bet there are a whole lot more of them.

Even Chris Ferguson, a pro who did the challenge, was unable to perform with the returns you managed. It is too much to assume everyone else could.

You also mentioned playing for 5 years before this, although a different game. Perhaps you only started counting your challenge after you initially won some money in a freeroll.

hackmeplz · Aug 29, 2013

I agree 100% with the OP here. I think in general people who do end up succeeding at the challenge could have succeeded months or even years earlier if they had just deposited in the first place. Like seriously the "skills" you pick up playing freerolls are going to hurt your long run game anyway. Like even at 2nl you get plenty of fish but it's not gonna be like 7-way allins as freerolls are a lot early on. If you can't deposit and want to try to start a roll from nothing gl to you but if your goal is to maximize your long-term expectation in money and in growth as a poker player depositing something like $20-$100 is by far the better option imo.

bezobrazny · Aug 31, 2013

I am not the fan either starting from scratch, it's boring I think playing without the dollar at least.

Bowman26 · Sep 6, 2013

Just make an initial deposit to gt you started as the OP mentioned. You don't go to the casino without some cash at least. Get he most on the bonuses you can and start to play. Bovada is only my 2nd time ever depositing since party poker days. I put $50 each time. We'll see where Bovada takes me but that $50 on Party took me to several nice cash outs and eventually my final cash out when I left paid for a 7 day trip for me and the wife to a private island in the Bahamas

Skidis · Sep 6, 2013

Really great post!

I have trying to increase my bankroll from 0$. I have been been trying for a 4 month time now (I put in like 20$ from start but lost it in 1-2 Days). I do like this beacuse I havent need to risk anything and because I like the challenge!

Cooking · Sep 7, 2013

I agree if the only options for the beginner player are the big freerolls, like those from ps or FT. It's a completely waste of time to play in these freerolls. I remember that when I started, I had like a lot of poker rooms on my desktop because I never used to play in the big freerolls, only played the private ones and the smaller rooms freerolls the used the money to take advantage of depositors promotions. But that was years ago (way before the BF), when online poker was way easier than nowadays. Now, when someone asks to me how to start, I say to play some freerolls to see how the game is and then invest at least $20 to deposit in a room, play all the depositors frerolls from that room, cash out and do the process in other rooms. After all that, you invest you winnings in a solid room like PS or FT and take advantage of deposit bonus.

stevenright · Sep 11, 2013

Cooking said:
I agree if the only options for the beginner player are the big freerolls, like those from ps or FT. It's a completely waste of time to play in these freerolls. I remember that when I started, I had like a lot of poker rooms on my desktop because I never used to play in the big freerolls, only played the private ones and the smaller rooms freerolls the used the money to take advantage of depositors promotions. But that was years ago (way before the BF), when online poker was way easier than nowadays. Now, when someone asks to me how to start, I say to play some freerolls to see how the game is and then invest at least $20 to deposit in a room, play all the depositors frerolls from that room, cash out and do the process in other rooms. After all that, you invest you winnings in a solid room like PS or FT and take advantage of deposit bonus.

I kinda thing about all that bonus from the other sites... but i get really lazy just thinking about registering in all of those, making deposits and so forth...

i guess i just prefer deposit a good amount in your favorite site and play peacefully

we will rock you · Sep 11, 2013

i love the chris ferguson challenge i actually did while poker was legal in the united states i really need them or pokerstars to come back soon so i can quit my day job

jazzaxe · Sep 11, 2013

I think that it is a better idea to deposit on a regular basis regardless of your outcome. When you go on a rush, you will move up that much faster. Your money management skills will provide you with a stoploss and the deposits won't make you have to move down.

jcdagenius · Sep 11, 2013

very hard playing freerolls to build up...but it is possible.....0 bankroll is grind for sure...sometimes that's how it is.....it is doable

nkesi · Sep 12, 2013

rarely adequately discourage their bonuses

xzquit · Sep 12, 2013

I think the freerolls are a good start to gain a capital.
Thats why i prefer the freerolls rather than deposing

PoKeRFoRNiA · Dec 22, 2013

I'm just reluctant to deposit again after Black Friday, that f--ked my bankroll over on Full Tilt.

I do play private freerolls such as cc freerolls, while having rakeback and also, playing rakeback site's freerolls.

When I first started playing online poker, I initially deposited roughly $200, lost it. My former roommate played OFC freeroll, got 5th place or so, won $40, turned that $40 into $500, gave me half of it, which I withdrew $200 to get my money back, and just play with $50 and try the Ferguson challenge of 20 buy-ins at 2NL, went broke. However, I used those full tilt points, which gave me access to Daily Dollar tournament every single day, and boosted my bankroll. Ever since then, I've never gone broke on full tilt and built up my bankroll to roughly $800 before Black Friday.

Building from freerolls does have its benefits. Since you don't have your own money that you worked hard for involved, you can freely play poker like it's a video game. In other words, no fear with the way you play. Of course, this turned me into a LAGtard but freerolls have its benefits. Most people who deposit, they tend to play tight-aggressive poker because they're afraid to lose their money or they can't afford to go broke easily. By building my bankroll from freerolls, I was able to try out new strategies, new style of playing, bluffing in good spots, awkward spots, etc. I couldn't care less to lose since I said I've got all of these for free anyways. This kind of mindset, made me explore around various styles of playing. I was able to see poker more as a video game where I dont' have to worry about losing money that I worked hard for although $100 is only 2-4 hours of my work. I started to see money as blinds, buy-ins, rather than money of what it can get me in real life.

In retrospect, I would prefer depositing. But I'm not gonna say I regret it because working my way up to building a bankroll taught me lot of diligence, tilt control, and experience.

I disagree with using bonus as an excuse for depositing. Many new players, they're not good players. Those bonuses come with a price. You must play certain amount of hands or reach certain amount of rake to release that amount and majority of the players, they go broke before releasing the bonuses. LOL If you're a winning player and a grinder, then releasing that bonus is nothing. But you'll never release all of the bonus and come out with profit if you're a newbie or losing player, at best, you'll break even.

I say only deposit if you're serious with online poker and you plan to become a reg who plans to make money consistently off online as income. But for people who are playing as a hobby for fun, I say building from freeroll is fine as long as you're playing private freerolls. I don't think of online poker as my primary or possible secondary income. It's a fun video game to me. I have a job as a teacher and a tutor. My two jobs will earn me money consistently. I can't imagine living my life as a poker player where I am reliant on a game that has high variance involved. Unless I am leatherass9 who can play thousands and millions of hands and never have a losing month, online poker will never be my source of income.

n3rv · Dec 23, 2013

n3rv said:
I'm starting from $0. I have gotten it past $10 a few times and up to around $30 on one occasion, but lost it all again - often due to poor bankroll management and running bad. However, sometimes due to tilting and playing bad as well. I'd still rather tilt with $30 that I grinded because it makes me remember my mistakes better, and will ensure when I am on tilt at higher stakes I don't gamble further...

Just to extend on this as the thread was bumped again. I have now had bankrolls over $250 from grinding freerolls (took under 1 month grinding) and my current bankroll is over $150... (yes I am still tilting and playing at stakes I shouldn't be on occasions).

Nevertheless, I feel I would be >$150 down, if I had invested with my own money at the start in my short poker "career". The fact I am still $150 up overall from $0 shows some slight progress, even if it is largely from freerolls and rakeback.

However, I do now see part of the OPs point as I now start to grind micro-stakes more than freerolls. I am such a good freeroll and aggressive MTT player that it makes me a poor micro-stakes grinder. Ironically I find with my current skill-set I play better against nits than donks as I understand their ranges and motivations better - it is also a more mentally stimulating game for me.

It will now take a new approach to the game in order to beat it again at these micro stakes, which actually offer a lower daily rate than my freeroll and token tourney winnings due to buy-ins. I am willing to adapt, however I partially agree that this adaptation has been hindered by playing too many freerolls at stakes that, for the most part, do not matter to the players involved if they lose. That said, for me personally, as a gambler, I feel it is vital I bankrolled myself this way to help with determination, variance, bankroll management etc. - I am still not perfect in these areas.

Why I am not a fan of starting from $0

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