Why do we assume

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Murph1969

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our opponents are playing correctly? I just believe putting someone on a range is garbage. After all, every flop hits SOMEBODY right? As an example, let’s say you raise preflop UTG with AA. The button calls. Flop comes 8-6-3 rainbow. You bet 3/4 pot and he calls. What on earth is he representing here? What I’m saying is all this teaching gives people WAY too much credit as compared to how they actually play. And I know what you’re thinking-“but that makes them so much easier to beat!” No, it just makes them more unpredictable.
 
Luvepoker

Luvepoker

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Its not just about the ranges but the player against you and every player plays differently. What could he be representing? 97 and 57 have open end draws. He could have one of the sets and on this board maybe afraid you have nothing and did not re-raise. He could have 2 pair 86 and he could have any 8 or 6.

The issue is some players may never have these hands in there range while other have it.
 
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StressMit

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If they get you to act, the way they want you to act
They are in control.
 
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Murph1969

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Its not just about the ranges but the player against you and every player plays differently. What could he be representing? 97 and 57 have open end draws. He could have one of the sets and on this board maybe afraid you have nothing and did not re-raise. He could have 2 pair 86 and he could have any 8 or 6.

The issue is some players may never have these hands in there range while other have it.


But the, “experts,” would tell you they’re paying too much for their draws and they would raise with two pair or a set. The point is not everybody plays the way the coaches think they do.
 
Matt_Burns88

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our opponents are playing correctly? I just believe putting someone on a range is garbage. After all, every flop hits SOMEBODY right? As an example, let’s say you raise preflop UTG with AA. The button calls. Flop comes 8-6-3 rainbow. You bet 3/4 pot and he calls. What on earth is he representing here? What I’m saying is all this teaching gives people WAY too much credit as compared to how they actually play. And I know what you’re thinking-“but that makes them so much easier to beat!” No, it just makes them more unpredictable.
Poker is a game of incomplete and inconsistent information. There is a generally accepted way of playing, but style and skill level will cause every player to stray from the norm. The worse the player the more likely it is that they are further from the "textbook" play. Your job is to try and figure out what they are doing wrong and exploit it.
In your example, with no information, villain could have almost anything. But what if you had 5,000 hands on him and dozens of notes. "calls c-bet with A high on dry boards" "always raises his sets on the flop" "called flop and turn 80% pot bet with double gutshot and no backdoors" "called down with TT on very wet board with 2 overs". You can start to build a picture of the type of player you're up against. The above notes all come from one player. When I come up against him/her, I know to value bet them to death, but if they show any kind of strength, I've almost always just going to give up because they probably have a monster. The more you play against someone, the more you learn their tendencies and the easier it is to put them on a range. Sometimes that doesn't look anything like what the books or charts say it should be.
 
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fundiver199

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Poker is not so much about putting your opponent on an exact range. Its more about classifying your own hand and take the appropriate line. If you can bet and get called by a lot of worse hands, you should usually bet for value. If you are likely to have the best hand, but its to difficult to get called by worse, you should check (showdown value). If you almost certainly have the worst hand, you can consider betting as a bluff, but you can also just give up.

If the opponent show aggression, then you ask yourself "would he do this for value with a hand worse hand mine". If the aggression is raising you on the river after calling flop and turn, and you hold AA as an overpair, then probably the answer is "no". And this is more important than trying to figure out, if J4 is in his range, so that he can have two pair with that hand on QJ7-2-4. The point is, he is representing something better than your AA, so unless you have a good reason to think, he is bluffing, you should probably fold.
 
BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch

BetterThanAvgButNotByMuch

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Putting people on hands in NL Holdem is going to be a critical step in your development, its everything. Why would you call a bet if you had no idea where you were in a hand? How can appropriately bet the flop or latter streets if you don't have a clue to what they might have? How can you decide to go all in on someone when you don't know if you're against 36 or AK or a premium hand? I mean its literally how you play NL Holdem, its probably one of the most important skills.

It sounds like you're just playing your own cards and not aware of other factors that go into your decisions and that's fine since everyone was at that stage.

If you watch TV poker and watch your favorite poker player win a hand with a trash hand and think you can do it then be my guest but a lot of those players are professional players with a ton of knowledge and experience and have a ton of skill and the know how and discipline to get out of those hands with the least amount of damage to their stack and they're playing them for a reason other than to win a pot such as to sending a message or setting opponents up with false information as to how they play hands down the line. And when they call a hand with trash they know its against someone that if their opponent has AA KK JJ or some premium or an Ace x and hits the ace while they hit 2 pair with that trash will stack the premium hand opponent because they won't be able to get away from the hand.

If someone doesn't know where they are in a hand they will be a losing player FOREVER. Show me a person with a winning track record where they have to put up something whether its playchips or money and I definitely without a doubt would love to hear their explanation of how to set people up to get them to put their money into a pot without having a clue what their opponent has because going all in or betting big when you have a premium hand or something like the nuts/a board dominated and you have no idea what your opponent has is just THROWING AWAY OPPORTUNITIES.

I laugh when these folks go all in to show some monster on the flop heads up when they have the board DOMINATED THEN their opponent folds and they show the monster. That's playing holdem at the very lowest levels. THAT IS LOSING POKER because you have to see that yeah there are times where you lose/win chips but there are other times where you miss out on opportunities and don't get as much as you should. AND NL HOLDEM IS ALL ABOUT FINDING WAYS TO EXTRACT THE MOST CHIPS AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY!!!!!!

Once in a blue moon in the Cardschat ACR freerolls I will shove with a nonsensical hand like 27, 36 etc against a single raiser who is trying to steal my blind, then show the bluff and then type some silly nonsense like "You better not do that again" or some silly nonsense.

What is really happening is, I know they're a decent player before I even attempt that and I'm putting them on a hand like small pairs, KT+ probably KJ+ including those Ace x hands and I'm either messing around with them having fun or trying to figure out if they're good enough to fold that hand. And I don't do that with calling stations and uber bad players.

What I'm doing is actually complimenting them saying I have a clue what they have and I know that they recognize its not the best way to play for their tourn life in a 55/45% coin flip if I have over cards to theirs or they need to hit a three outer if I have their Ace dominated. And folding when you don't have an edge is what you're suppose to do. Most tourn players aren't trying to play big pots in bingo situations, that's not how good players go about business. They try to control the pot size and grind tourns looking for opportunities to increase their stacks trying to avoid all ins.

But whatever, back the the thief and the blind steal, I know they're sitting there thinking that I actually have something or I wouldn't even attempt such a move. It means that I respect their game enough to do that play because they're thinking about opponents hands and not just considering the 2 cards in front of them.

Once I show that bluff, other folks at the table will call me the next time I shove which is actually what I want because the next time I do that, its usually won't be with 26, lol and they will be done. The original raiser might try to steal by calling and betting the flop and I have little "games" for them if they go that route but the other point that I'm trying to tell you is that the game is so much better and so much more fun when ppl actually know how to play and can put ppl on hands!!!

Playing bad players is just simple solid, "don't bluff a bad player poker" bland poker. You put me at a table full of bad players and you're going to see me type and type and type in the chat or quoting songs or referencing tv shows that I'm watching because I will be so bored of the straightforward bland poker that I have to play. I will definitely be looking at other tables like the chip leaders tables to see if they have a clue or just a lucky clueless donks at that point since there little reason to pay attention to the table I'm at since I know who and what they are and what they're capable of.

Ranted enough, keep working on putting folks on hands and gaining experience and knowledge. Yes, it will be frustrating. Yes, it won't be fun when you put someone on a hand and they don't have anywhere what you think they have but you still gain info on their game and keeps you actively participating at what's going on at the table even when you're not in hands but let me type this again: the games will be way more fun when you can put folks on hands!!!!

Oh and when you say "they're unpredictable" lol no, they're VERY predictable in that they're playing bad trash hands or hands that get most folks in trouble, lolol.
 
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Kenzie 96

Kenzie 96

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Murph, hope you take the time to read & consider the information offered you in the 3 posts above mine, Well worth your time.
 
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